Re: Public Schools

ronsimpson@unidial.com wrote:
>I hate to burst any bubbles but, the school with the highest number
> of National Merit Finalists and highest number of 1600 SATs is a 
> Public High School (Jefferson High in Fairfax, VA)

The same is true for Montreal (Royal Vale) using the equivalent scoring methods.
But there are public schools at both extremes of the curve.

While it is true that Private Schools would not survive due to market forces if
they did consistently poorly, it is also true that they filter their incoming
student body in a manner that Public Schools can not.

If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better have
a solution for the resulting cast-offs.

James

At 1:35 PM -0500 9/27/96, jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:

>If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
>Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better
>have
>a solution for the resulting cast-offs.

Believe me, I don't mean to be provocative (in a trolling sense), but "I
have a solution."

More students should, fairly early on, be "flunked out" of courses in the
"academic/professional track" and moved into _trades_. For example, the way
many European countries have outstanding vocational/trade schools. The
usual trades: machinists, woodworkers, auto mechanics, technicians of all
sorts, and so on. Few of these trades need, or even benefit from, courses
in history, mathematics (beyond simple algebra and a tad of geometry, not
the really neat stuff about proving Euclid's theorems in novel ways, the
things people like me excelled in, but which left many other students
shaking their heads and barely passing the class), etc. Most of the
academic subjects in high school are neither needed nor remembered.

(And I reject any of the common arguments that Americans need to learn
history, the Constitution, etc. Few of them remember a single word they
learned, and one might as well teach the basics in earlier grades and
dispense with meaningless lectures about how and when the Senate may invoke
cloture, how the Foreign Powers Act modified the 1877 Trade Act, and so on.)

As I look around me, here in Santa Cruz, I see hundreds of "homeless
persons.: We used to call them beggars, bums, panhandlers, winos, hobos,
and drifters. The people unwilling to get up in the morning for a boring
job, the people unwilling to take the donations they get and buy some new
clothes at the Salvation Army (I know people of both sexes who buy their
business clothes at thrift shops, at huge discounts, so I reject any of the
usual arguments that this won't work.)

When I see people working at Taco Bell, Burger King, gas stations, etc.,
and then I see the so-called "homeless," the situation is completely clear
to me. And, like pigeons, if you begin feeding the beggars, you'll have
more of them.

There's a further point to consider. In times past, many of the "marginal"
people had other kinds of jobs. Maids, gardeners, cooks, stable boys,
butlers, etc. (I'm not saying they were all subnormal, neurotic, etc., just
that many of them didn't fit into other sorts of jobs--like running the
town store, raising sheep, shoeing horses, and other "professions," such as
they were then--and working for others as maids and assistants of various
sorts was a kind of sheltered, almost "familial," kind of employment.
Shelter was often provided on-site, further aiding those who might find it
hard to cope with the outside "market."

These jobs have largely gone away. Partly because houses have gotten
smaller (compared to manor houses, for example), partly because of
automation and other technological advances (cars, refrigerators, etc.),
partly because of "egalitarian" sentiments that tend to discourage people
from either hiring maids or from seeing maid service as a longterm career.
(Getting back to an earlier point, that dingbat studying "Sociology 101"
and "History of Consciousness" at Valley Girl Community College is being
_told_ she's headed for a professional career, despite her lack of interest
in academic topics and her marginal abilities....there's no way someone
like her will think seriously of such a "low-class" job as a maid! Better
for her to cadge for spare change and deal some drugs on the side than do
something that demeaning.)

It has also become almost impossible to find good tradespeople. Stories of
good gardeners, babysitters, maids, and even roofers being "hoarded" by
Marin County or Beverly Hills millionaires are only partially exaggerated.
This has a lot to do with the limited supply, and also with problems of
work ethic, honesty, and such things, many of which have changed rather
dramatically in recent decades. Where once a worker in one's house could
mostly be trusted, despite the occasional reports of items of silverware
missing, today's workers are seldom to be trusted alone in the house.
Horror stories abound of "home alone" workers throwing parties, rooting
through the personal papers of their employers, and of robbing the houses
of whatever they could carry.

And the "nanny tax" and related paperwork needed to hire a person for even
a few hours worth of work has made much casual work (the "odd jobs" that
drifters used to get to earn enough money to eat) almost impossible to
arrange. (Every morning there are Mexicans lined up in the parking lot of a
K-Mart in a nearby town, with contractors seeking to hire temporary
laborers. The contractors know all the forms to fill out, if they bother.
Casual employers like me know they risk heavy fines if caught hiring
"undocumented workers," or failing to dot all the "i"s and cross all the
"t"s, even for a 4-hour job. So much for liberty.

For the last couple of weeks I've been hauling 70-pound stones to build a
retaining wall (don't ask me about the permits I should've gotten), ripping
up redwood deck boards, digging postholes for a new fence, and generally
doing a couple of hours of manual labor every day. While it has its
advantages, in earlier days I could've counted on providing some employment
for someone who today is "a homeless person." No more. They're not
psychologically prepared to do a solid (if unspectacular) job, as they've
been taught for all of their lives that they went through high school and
maybe a couple of years of college (and maybe more) so they could join the
professional ranks....when they see they really won't be joining the
professional ranks, and that they really don't want to make the sacrifices
to, they have nothing to fall back on.

So, in the "olden days," the social bargain was this: I'd spend some of the
money I'd accumulated in whatever manner I had and exchange it with some of
the tradespeople or laborers for their labor. A fair deal for both.

Now, we've got trash littering our highways, but nobody thinks seriously of
having prisoners pick it up (the "chain gangs" when I was a kid), or having
"welfare mothers" out picking it up, or having day laborers do the work.
Ditto for all sorts of other "infrastructure" work that's needed.

(I knew someone married to a honcho in CalTrans, the California Department
of Transportation, responsible for the freeways. He confirmed that "cheap
labor" is barred, by various union contracts negotiated over the years, and
that the starting pay for CalTrans workers is $30K a year...probably more
by now. So, "homeless people" are sitting around begging for spare change
and harassing passersby, welfare mothers are collecting welfare, AFDC, food
stamps, and WIC money for doing nothing except their specialty (as someone
noted, "welfare-powered bastard factories"), University of California
"History of Consciousness" (yes, a real major) graduates are waitressing
tables at local Santa Cruz restaurants (because they can't find employers
who want a "HofC" graduate, as with so many worthless majors), all the
while CalTrans is hiring "transportation engineers" for
far-more-than-market prices to pick up trash on highways. Anybody still
think things are not out of whack?)

My conclusion is simple: Tell people if they don't work, they won't eat. If
they do something others are willing to give them money to do, they won't
get money. They won't get "entitlements" from the government (= taxpayers,
= those who are working, = me and thee). Tell them that a college education
should only be pursued if one has a "calling" to be an engineer, a
programmer (and probably not even that, judging by what I see), a doctor, a
lawyer (on second thought, don't ever suggest they become lawyers), and so
on.

And make it easier to hire people, instead of harder. (And if one hires a
maid, and the maid steals, cut off her hand. We've lost sight of justice,
and people think that ripping off the rich is their kind of justice. This
needs to change.)

Even liberals are beginning to understand the "game theory" aspects. Like
pigeons, if you feed them, you'll have more bums, winos, addicts, drifters,
and beggars. If you give people money when they have babies, whether they
are working or married, they'll drift into having more babies. (Not as a
carefullly-considered choice, but for a variety of systemic, psychological,
game-theoretic, and "path of least resistance" reasons.)

Psychologists and similar psychobabblers call it "tough love." If one
always "enables" an addict, a layabout, a shiftless worker, with excuses
and handouts, the behavior does not change. To save a person, sometimes
harshness is needed.

This is why crypto anarchy's starving of the tax system is good. It may
"kill" some number of people, as nearly any new idea does, but ultimately
it will put things back on track.

--Tim May


We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Mr. May said:
> At 1:35 PM -0500 9/27/96, jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> >If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
> >Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better
> >have
> >a solution for the resulting cast-offs.
> 
> (And I reject any of the common arguments that Americans need to learn
> history, the Constitution, etc. Few of them remember a single word they
> learned, and one might as well teach the basics in earlier grades and
> dispense with meaningless lectures about how and when the Senate may invoke
> cloture, how the Foreign Powers Act modified the 1877 Trade Act, and so on.)

     I would assert that if children (ALL of them) had been thru a class
in the Hows and Whys of the constitution, rather than the glossing over 
that I remember, our government would be a lot different. I am not 
talking about _just_ an intense memorization of the document, but a 
reading of the federalist papers (which I still haven't gotten all the 
way thru) and a month or two of purely discussing and analyzing the 
document, the Feds couldn't get away with what they are doing. 

     I agree that students who aren't cut out for the academic life should
be incouraged to persue trades, or the arts (which IMO are simply trades,
and my degree will be a BFA when I finish that last Art History class) but
citizenship is _everyones_ responsibility, and there are too many people 
clamoring for laws & amendments without thinking, and without understanding
the process. Our schools are not turning out thinkers, and that is a (IMO)
a fatal flaw. 

     This is the OBCrypto part: For Crypto(in the sense of anonymity and
pseudoanonymity) to truely be accepted and appreciated by the "general 
public (yes, a vague term), they need to understand the history of anonymous
publications. They need to understand _why_ people should want to publish
anonymously.
     The other side is that for your "crypto-anarchy" to succeed, we need 
people who can understand things like "algorythms" and "mathmatical proofs".

     The rest of this is [NOISE]. 

> As I look around me, here in Santa Cruz, I see hundreds of "homeless
> persons.: We used to call them beggars, bums, panhandlers, winos, hobos,
> and drifters. The people unwilling to get up in the morning for a boring
> job, the people unwilling to take the donations they get and buy some new
> clothes at the Salvation Army (I know people of both sexes who buy their
> business clothes at thrift shops, at huge discounts, so I reject any of the
> usual arguments that this won't work.)

     I have bought "work clothes"--collared shirts, trousers &etc--at 
SalAr, and my wife still does. She works for the Merc as a secretary. 
These many of these people are unwilling to do _anything_ to help themselves,
and it is the fault of everyone who ever handed them a dime. As one 
former listmember ranted one day "You know why there are beggars in this 
city?"..."Because people like you (not me, his partner) GIVE THEM MONEY".
People wouldn't beg if it got them nothing.  

> When I see people working at Taco Bell, Burger King, gas stations, etc.,
> and then I see the so-called "homeless," the situation is completely clear
> to me. And, like pigeons, if you begin feeding the beggars, you'll have
> more of them.

     Oops. You made that point. 

> For the last couple of weeks I've been hauling 70-pound stones to build a
> retaining wall (don't ask me about the permits I should've gotten), ripping
> up redwood deck boards, digging postholes for a new fence, and generally
> doing a couple of hours of manual labor every day. While it has its
> advantages, in earlier days I could've counted on providing some employment
> for someone who today is "a homeless person." No more. They're not
> psychologically prepared to do a solid (if unspectacular) job, as they've
> been taught for all of their lives that they went through high school and
> maybe a couple of years of college (and maybe more) so they could join the
> professional ranks....when they see they really won't be joining the
> professional ranks, and that they really don't want to make the sacrifices
> to, they have nothing to fall back on.

     While I'd agree that this is true for many, I know some (me, my brother
and a couple of my cousins) that have done work like this more than once. 
Not that I would do that kind of work (for pay) today, unless I was _real_
desperate.

     Then again, it could be a family thing. 

> get money. They won't get "entitlements" from the government (= taxpayers,
> = those who are working, = me and thee). Tell them that a college education
> should only be pursued if one has a "calling" to be an engineer, a
> programmer (and probably not even that, judging by what I see), a doctor, a
> lawyer (on second thought, don't ever suggest they become lawyers), and so
> on.

     I see no reason that general programming shouldn't be considered a 
trade. Maybe more "pure" math than a carpenter, or a mechanic, but they
don't need the english, general history, & etc. that other "academic" 
careers need.  

> And make it easier to hire people, instead of harder. (And if one hires a
> maid, and the maid steals, cut off her hand. We've lost sight of justice,
> and people think that ripping off the rich is their kind of justice. This
> needs to change.)

     Cutting off hands is a little drastic. Too prone to false aqusations,
and too hard to erase if the courts are wrong. Three years at hard labor
on bare sustance would be about right tho', and if the aqusation is proved
false, it is erase from the record. 

> This is why crypto anarchy's starving of the tax system is good. It may
> "kill" some number of people, as nearly any new idea does, but ultimately
> it will put things back on track.
 
    People die for all manner of reasons every day. Fuck'em.
  

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

snow wrote:
> Mr. May said:
> > At 1:35 PM -0500 9/27/96, jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote:
> > >If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from 
> > >Public Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual
> > >climate, you better have a solution for the resulting cast-offs.

[text deleted: trade schools, welfare system, etc.]

> People die for all manner of reasons every day. Fuck'em.
> Petro, Christopher C.
> petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
> snow@smoke.suba.com

Seems to me they had excellent solutions in the 1930's. Bread lines for 
those who needed food and couldn't find work. Labor camps for those who 
wanted to work anyway.

At 9:26 pm -0400 9/28/96, snow wrote:
>      I see no reason that general programming shouldn't be considered a
> trade. Maybe more "pure" math than a carpenter, or a mechanic, but they
> don't need the english, general history, & etc. that other "academic"
> careers need.

I have to say I agree with this. I know more than a few kids in my
neighborhood who are more than smart enough, if they got over their
technophobia and a little innumeracy. They could make more than the average
drug dealer's lookout if they were to learn to code.

Unfortunately, all the "trade" schools around here teach you to replace
boards rather than hack code.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com)
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender."
                -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard,
                       for Bart Simpson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

James said:
> ronsimpson@unidial.com wrote:
> >I hate to burst any bubbles but, the school with the highest number
> > of National Merit Finalists and highest number of 1600 SATs is a=20
> > Public High School (Jefferson High in Fairfax, VA)
> The same is true for Montreal (Royal Vale) using the equivalent scoring methods.
> But there are public schools at both extremes of the curve.
> While it is true that Private Schools would not survive due to market forces if
> they did consistently poorly, it is also true that they filter their incoming
> student body in a manner that Public Schools can not.
> If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
> Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better have
> a solution for the resulting cast-offs.
 
     There is a solution. Trade Schools, and Parental Envolvement. It could 
very well be (and if I had the money I'd make the bet) that _many_ of the 
"troubled" youth of today are simply undisiplined. (Fortunately, most of 
them couldn't afford to bet against their parents in an AP world). It would
also seem to follow that if parents were spending their own money (or 
perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater interest in
their childrens education.
   
      For those that are truly not scholastically oreinted, there would be
trade schools. I would also bet that you could teach a child everything they
need to learn (other than a trade) to cope in this world in about 4 years. 

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

There is a solution. Trade Schools,


        This is the single most important fact in the U.S. inability
    maintain the manufacturing  prowess we enjoyed until some poorly
    defined point in time after WWII!

        1.  several waves of immigration, most notably Germany after
            WWI, brought thousands of skilled machinists, &c. many
            of whom went the trade school route by screening or by
            socio-economic factors.

        2.  the U.S. prior to 1920 had an excellent trade school and
            apprentice program.

        WWII was the breaking point. the younger generation who
    survived the war wanted more for their children --hence the
    college emphasis for _everyone_!

        The problem was simple:  we have only the now retiring
    toolmakers who make it all possible.  engineering graduates will
    not observe the manufacturing floors since it is above their
    dignity to roll of their sleeves.

        if engineers were required to serve internships in the shops,
    as doctors are required to intern in a hospital (and the really
    good ones, the top of the class, choose what I call meat-wagon
    wards (large city ER and trauma units), the U.S. would be a far
    healthier and competitive environment.

        I know, why the meat wagon wards with their pressure and
    unreasonable hours?    experience, anything and everything
    comes through those doors every night, and it goes off the scale
    on the weekends...

        is there any reason to send an illiterate to college other
    to socialize?  is there any reason why the school system
    can only see a college degree other than for those who they
    prejudged to be just another generation of welfare mothers
    and deadbeat dads?

        why do many with 4 year college degrees only work as entry
    level secretaries, Burger King night "managers."  &c? then what
    do the rest of them do?  join the cradle to the grave dole gener-
    ation!


and Parental Envolvement.

It could  very well be (and if I had the money I'd make the bet)

that _many_ of the  "troubled" youth of today are simply

undisiplined.


        more the problem that the parents become interested too late,
    after the child has seen 2,000 murders on TV before the age of 6;
    walked the streets of parentless daytime; started cocaine at 16,
    maybe even 10; running for a gang....

        then they wail at the funeral: "...it's not fair, johnny was
    such a good boy...  society never gave him a chance...."   what
    they mean is they collect a $100/mo or so less from welfare!

        I have raised(ing) 5 children  --no TV in the house, and G
    rated movies occasionally.  what did/do the children find to
    do?  read, read, and read.  I don't have a problem trying to pry
    children away from a TV --but I often hear: "...puh-leez, daddy,
    just let me finish this chapter."   No such luck....



(Fortunately, most of  them couldn't afford to bet

against their parents in an AP world).


        real true...


It would also seem to

follow that if parents were spending their own money (or

perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater

interest in their childrens education.


        ...if they were smart enough to start about age 3.  the
    problem is further excaberated by the fact the average family
    expects the state to provide the "enthusiasum"  --is there any
    reason then, to expect other than Hillary's "It's a global
village"
    with her brand of liberal brainwashing of the next generation
    (all new revisionist history, etc.).   Welcome to "Logan's Run!"

        fortunately, I have no problem with the public schools. I'm
    not the only one in the neighborhood without a TV, and the
    community has trade schools mixed with the high schools,
    and a two year college to supplement the advanced placement
    programs.  very few families have two parents working.  the kids
    can play outside after dark, and our young women can walk by
    themselves after dark.  (I do admit that one good scream would
    have an extremely well-armed about to be posse out the door in
    15 seconds...  --I doubt there would be prisoners!)

        a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern utah
    where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4 bands, the
    top 2 being very impressive, and provide full AP classes, and ACT
    scores averaging 24-26+ v. the national average of 20 for inbound
    freshman. and, where an average ward (100-150 families) will have
    at least a dozen Eagle scouts.

        proves your point, I guess...

A person going by the name Attila said:

> = .     There is a solution. Trade Schools, 
>         The problem was simple:  we have only the now retiring
>     toolmakers who make it all possible.  engineering graduates will
>     not observe the manufacturing floors since it is above their 
>     dignity to roll of their sleeves.

     I knew too many engineering students to believe this. I knew one
(Civil Engineering) who had been a Paramedic, he wanted grease and
dirt on his hands, it may be harder to wash off, but much easier to
sleep off. 

>         if engineers were required to serve internships in the shops,
>     as doctors are required to intern in a hospital (and the really 
>     good ones, the top of the class, choose what I call meat-wagon 
>     wards (large city ER and trauma units), the U.S. would be a far 
>     healthier and competitive environment.

     No argument there.

>         I know, why the meat wagon wards with their pressure and
>     unreasonable hours?    experience, anything and everything
>     comes through those doors every night, and it goes off the scale
>     on the weekends...

     Hell, that desciribes the ER I used to work in, and it was in a 
college town. (Yes, I do have a sorted job history. Everything from 
a strip joint dj. to working as a designer for a Big 7 Accounting firm).

> = .It would also seem to
> = .follow that if parents were spending their own money (or 
> = .perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater
> = .interest in their childrens education.
> = . 
>         ...if they were smart enough to start about age 3.  the

     Better late than never. 

>     themselves after dark.  (I do admit that one good scream would
>     have an extremely well-armed about to be posse out the door in
>     15 seconds...  --I doubt there would be prisoners!)

     In my neighborhood, screams are so common (mostly from kids playing, 
and yes, I do check as often as I can) that most people don't bother to
check. Very different worlds. My wife and I are probably the only ones
who _don't_ watch TV. We have 2, plus 5 computers, and 5 or 6 book shelves.
The TV's were free, so were 2 of the computers.

>         a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern utah
>     where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4 bands, the
>     freshman. and, where an average ward (100-150 families) will have
>     at least a dozen Eagle scouts.
>         proves your point, I guess...

     Prove? I don't know, but it is some pretty solid evidense. Communism
at it's finest. A community of people who work together and take care of 
each other voluntarily for the common good. <hee hee> 

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

In <199609290153.UAA00354@smoke.suba.com>, on 09/28/96
   at 08:53 PM, snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> said:


A person going by the name Attila said:


>      There is a solution. Trade Schools,

>      The problem was simple:  we have only the now retiring

>toolmakers who make it all possible.  engineering graduates will not

>not observe the manufacturing floors since it is above their

>dignity to roll of their sleeves.


     I knew too many engineering students to believe this. I knew one (Civil

Engineering) who had been a Paramedic, he wanted grease and dirt on his

hands, it may be harder to wash off, but much easier to sleep off.


        he's the exception, not the rule.  I paid my way through
    Harvard as a tool and die maker --if the engineers had to make
    some of the crap they designed, they would design them that way
    again.


>    if engineers were required to serve internships in the shops,

>as doctors are required to intern in a hospital (and the really good

>ones, the top of the class, choose what I call meat-wagon wards

>(large city ER and trauma units), the U.S. would be a far healthier

>and competitive environment.


     No argument there.


>         I know, why the meat wagon wards with their pressure and

>unreasonable hours?    experience, anything and everything comes

>through those doors every night, and it goes off the scale on the

>weekends...


     Hell, that desciribes the ER I used to work in, and it was in a

college town. (Yes, I do have a sorted job history. Everything from  a strip

joint dj. to working as a designer for a Big 7 Accounting firm).


> 
It would also seem to

> 
follow that if parents were spending their own money (or

> 
perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater

> ânterest in their childrens education.

> =.

>         ...if they were smart enough to start about age 3.  the


     Better late than never.

            unfortunately, the conservative child care people believe
    the pattern may be irretrievably set by the age is six.  you need
    to start with the child from the gate with the nuture --reduces
    fear of abandonment, &c. and encourage trust so they will go to
    others without a tantrum, &c.

            President Hillary, of course, believes in *her* global
    village with *her* central government dictating for all
    --community raising a generation of raison heads!  --from day 1!


>     themselves after dark.  (I do admit that one good scream would

>have an extremely well-armed about to be posse out the door in 15

>seconds or less...  --and, I doubt there would be prisoners!)

        you want a concealed weapon permit? --just go register.


     In my neighborhood, screams are so common (mostly from kids playing,

and yes, I do check as often as I can) that most people don't bother to

check.


        a scream of terror is a different scream.  besides, we have 6
    families in our 8-10 acre section --33 kids between us.  and our
    air raid siren would be howling like an inbound kamikaze.


Very different worlds. My wife and I are probably the only ones who

_don't_ watch TV. We have 2, plus 5 computers, and 5 or 6 book shelves. The

TV's were free, so were 2 of the computers.

        we're light on computers at the moment --only 3, and I need 3
    more.    bookshelves?  30 feet, floor to ceiling, packed. trying
    save enough to get one of the 7 CD rom up in parallel deals for
    the 8G freeBSD fileserver --OS/2 (merlin) workstations. stuff is
    expensive, even when you buy right.

        well, out here, probably 20% of the families did not have a
    TV;  I gave the "message" one Sunday a couple months ago and
    the percentage has gone up.  those who did have TVs have them
    severely restricted for content --there are no R movies
    tolerated --and most do not bring in a commercial signal --VCRs.

        the population base is changing with an influx of non-Mormons
    in town, so R rated are showing up at the theatres and video
    rentals in town.

        the police visible prescence is effective --a force of 50+ for
    a population base < 25,000, plus the county sherrif cars and the
    state police.   Curfew is 10pm weekdays for minors --and they
    enforce it, big time.  midnight Fri/Sat.


>         a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern utah

>where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4 bands,

>

>and, where an average ward (100-150 families) will have at

>least a dozen Eagle scouts.

>         proves your point, I guess...

        ...idle hands are the devil's workshop. you want good solid
    kids, you start from the gate and keep 'em busy: home, neighbors,
    school, church, etc.

            yes, you work hard for it --every day.  I have 5, and it
    can be a real task with internecine warfare and all that good
    stuff.   It starts at home and goes the route.  there is no dead
    time on a streetcorner, or at friends house without a parent home.

            they do not date until they are 16 --in groups.  boys and
    girls --the same rules.


     Prove? I don't know, but it is some pretty solid evidense.

Communism at it's finest. A community of people who work

together and take care of  each other voluntarily for the common

good. <hee hee>

        good thing you added the <hee hee>

            --half redneck republicans
            --half further right

        clinton, let alone communism, is a fighting word....

        conspiracy theory is live and well.  as far as anyone around
    here is concerned, Waco and Ruby Ridge were to establish a
    need for gun control, militia bans, privacy abridgements, CDA,
    crypto bans, &c.  opinion on the government in the midst of OKC
    and TWA is moving into the positive range --and there is
    absolutely no doubt of Bubba's cocaine habit or the stink of
    Mena airport.

        BTW, the education level is way above the national average;
    not very many dummies out here.  we do have an advantage: BYU is
    $3K/semester for LDS members, and you need 3.7 to 4.0 to get in.

        schools  --if YOU don't support them, you and we don't have
    them!

--
  "God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. . . .
    What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not
    warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of
    resistance?. . .The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to
    time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
        --Thomas Jefferson, regarding anarchy.

Hey, Attila, let me know where you folks live...I may want to move there!

At 2:56 AM +0000 9/29/96, attila wrote:

>        the population base is changing with an influx of non-Mormons
>    in town, so R rated are showing up at the theatres and video
>    rentals in town.

Just so long as my DSS dish still works in Utah--hey, I'll invite all the
jack Mormons over for tomorrow night's showing of "Inside Janine," on the
"Playboy Channel." (The "Playboy Channel" is kind of tame by video rental
standards, but more crotch shots than we used to see a couple of years ago.)

>        the police visible prescence is effective --a force of 50+ for
>    a population base < 25,000, plus the county sherrif cars and the
>    state police.   Curfew is 10pm weekdays for minors --and they
>    enforce it, big time.  midnight Fri/Sat.

They enforce the "curfew" big time?

Looks like some Mormon pigs need to be zapped.

(My kids don't cotton to no cop telling them when they can be out in public
and when they can't. Any cop who tries to stop my kids from being out has
earned severe retaliation. Any councilmember or state legislator who voted
for such a curfew needs to be hog-tied, covered with tar, then torched.)

I guess this is why I wouldn't last very long in Mormon Country. A fascist
encampment, it sounds like.

(I have no problem with Mormons, or Catholics, or Muslims, or Satanists
keeping _their own_ children indoors after 7, or 5, or whatever their Holy
Hour or Curfew Hour is, but no fucking religious nuts are going to tell
_me_ when _my_ children must be indoors. I determine where my children may
be, and I don't need the State's permission for them to be out. I would
think anyone with an iota of libertarian sentiment would understand this.)

>        ...idle hands are the devil's workshop. you want good solid
>    kids, you start from the gate and keep 'em busy: home, neighbors,
>    school, church, etc.

Do Utah's cops also enforce this law, too?


>            they do not date until they are 16 --in groups.  boys and
>    girls --the same rules.

With the Utah State Police enforcing this "dating curfew"?


(I may sound harsh here, but "curfew" means one and only one thing to me:
somebody restricting my freedom of those of my children to be a public
place. Should one of my children be picked up by cops for doing nothing
illegal, save for being "out past curfew," I'd consider violent response to
be justified. It sounds to me--not that I ever thought otherwise--that Utah
is not a land that favors liberty.)

--Tim May

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 3:02 AM +0000 9/28/96, attila wrote:

>        a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern utah
>    where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4 bands, the
>    top 2 being very impressive, and provide full AP classes, and ACT

Wow! Utah is teaching AP?  Is Jim Bell being brought in as a Special Lecturer?

(I knew Idaho has special Militia classes, but to hear that Utah is now
teaching Assassination Politics is pretty impressive.)

--Tim

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

In <v03007800ae72776fcbd0@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/27/96
   at 10:36 PM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:


At 3:02 AM +0000 9/28/96, attila wrote:


>        a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern

> utah where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4

> bands, the top 2 being very impressive, and provide full AP

> classes, and ACT


Wow! Utah is teaching AP?  Is Jim Bell being brought in as a

Special Lecturer?


        come on, Tim... you are not that old.  AP has three meanings
    (at least):

        1.  Associated Press (news gathering)
        2.  Advanced Placement (as in college credit for HS classes)
        3.  not widely known:  Jim Bell's Assassination Political
Inanity.

        I wonder if Jim Bell would enjoy his stay in Utah's Dixie?
    there is only one bar in Washington county, and I understand
    it's pretty limited (if you even find it!).


(I knew Idaho has special Militia classes, but to hear that Utah is

now teaching Assassination Politics is pretty impressive.)

        Utah does not need militia classes:

        1.  opening of deer season (Oct 20) is a state holiday.
every-
            thing shuts down: schools, business, government... we take
            it real serious....

        2.  according to info I scanned from one of those moving
            target bleeding heart liberals, utahns have more weapons
            than children, and you know we have a lot of children.

        3.  if you are aware of Mormon heritage: despite a trail of
            blood from Kirtland (mild), Missouri (3 times, severe),
            and Nauvoo (medium), only one incident (in Missouri)
            found Mormons fighting to defend themselves.  In Utah,
            we endured an occupying U.S. army for almost 50 years
            while statehood was denied...  and our leaders were
            imprisoned, property and assets confiscated, etc.

        that's OK, tim;  I'm glad you're still feeling your oats in
    your old age!

--
one of the few things we all share:
  the utter, corrosive contempt for our elected officials.

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:36:57 -0800
> From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Public Schools
> 
> At 3:02 AM +0000 9/28/96, attila wrote:
> 
> >        a very unusual situation  --but I live in rural southern utah
> >    where the regional middle school of 1200 can support 4 bands, the
> >    top 2 being very impressive, and provide full AP classes, and ACT
> 
> Wow! Utah is teaching AP?  Is Jim Bell being brought in as a Special Lecturer?
> 
> (I knew Idaho has special Militia classes, but to hear that Utah is now
> teaching Assassination Politics is pretty impressive.)
> 
> --Tim
> 

Umm.. I think he meant AP as in "Advanced Placement", ah la college
classes in high school.  But who knows, maybe you were being sarcastic...

 --Deviant
The first time, it's a KLUDGE!
The second, a trick.
Later, it's a well-established technique!
                -- Mike Broido, Intermetrics

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, snow wrote:

> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:09:36 -0500 (CDT)
> From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
> To: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Public Schools
> 
> James said:
> > ronsimpson@unidial.com wrote:
> > >I hate to burst any bubbles but, the school with the highest number
> > > of National Merit Finalists and highest number of 1600 SATs is a=20
> > > Public High School (Jefferson High in Fairfax, VA)
> > The same is true for Montreal (Royal Vale) using the equivalent scoring methods.
> > But there are public schools at both extremes of the curve.
> > While it is true that Private Schools would not survive due to market forces if
> > they did consistently poorly, it is also true that they filter their incoming
> > student body in a manner that Public Schools can not.
> > If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
> > Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better have
> > a solution for the resulting cast-offs.
>  
>      There is a solution. Trade Schools, and Parental Envolvement. It could 
> very well be (and if I had the money I'd make the bet) that _many_ of the 
> "troubled" youth of today are simply undisiplined. (Fortunately, most of 
> them couldn't afford to bet against their parents in an AP world). It would
> also seem to follow that if parents were spending their own money (or 
> perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater interest in
> their childrens education.
>    
>       For those that are truly not scholastically oreinted, there would be
> trade schools. I would also bet that you could teach a child everything they
> need to learn (other than a trade) to cope in this world in about 4 years. 
> 

But now we must make a disinction... I'm LD in writing, but can read very
well (when I was in 6th grade I could read like a 10th grader), and do
very well in Math and Computer classes (and non-biological/anatomical
sciences).  So should I be in trade school, because I plan on being a
computer programmer, or go to college?  Sure, I don't do well in language
and (depending on the class) some history classes, which, IMHO, are
weighted more heavily than they should be in both public _and_ private
schools (and yes, I've been to both), but I don't think that should mean I
can't go to college...

Anyway, my point is that there is, at times, a very fine line...

 --Deviant
When we write programs that "learn", it turns out we do and they don't.

I have to agree with the final Quote....I am Good in math, chemistry and 
computer science I am good in any Logical cource but I have trouble in 
places liek " Creative Writing" I take all AP cources and make A's and 
B every now and again in english...I have a 3.7 gpa but a LOW sat in the 
grammar and english sections, 1100 in all I don't think colleges should 
look at the subjects you dont plan to major in...I plan to major in 
computer science when I go to college, so I dont think they should look 
so much at say english, or biology.  I get so frustrated in some of those 
classes....BTW I am a Junior in highschool


Brent

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, The Deviant wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, snow wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:09:36 -0500 (CDT)
> > From: snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>
> > To: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca
> > Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> > Subject: Re: Public Schools
> > 
> > James said:
> > > ronsimpson@unidial.com wrote:
> > > >I hate to burst any bubbles but, the school with the highest number
> > > > of National Merit Finalists and highest number of 1600 SATs is a=20
> > > > Public High School (Jefferson High in Fairfax, VA)
> > > The same is true for Montreal (Royal Vale) using the equivalent scoring methods.
> > > But there are public schools at both extremes of the curve.
> > > While it is true that Private Schools would not survive due to market forces if
> > > they did consistently poorly, it is also true that they filter their incoming
> > > student body in a manner that Public Schools can not.
> > > If you want to refuse those who are too stupid or anti-social from Public
> > > Schools in order to improve the social or intellectual climate, you better have
> > > a solution for the resulting cast-offs.
> >  
> >      There is a solution. Trade Schools, and Parental Envolvement. It could 
> > very well be (and if I had the money I'd make the bet) that _many_ of the 
> > "troubled" youth of today are simply undisiplined. (Fortunately, most of 
> > them couldn't afford to bet against their parents in an AP world). It would
> > also seem to follow that if parents were spending their own money (or 
> > perceived it as their own money) that they would take a greater interest in
> > their childrens education.
> >    
> >       For those that are truly not scholastically oreinted, there would be
> > trade schools. I would also bet that you could teach a child everything they
> > need to learn (other than a trade) to cope in this world in about 4 years. 
> > 
> 
> But now we must make a disinction... I'm LD in writing, but can read very
> well (when I was in 6th grade I could read like a 10th grader), and do
> very well in Math and Computer classes (and non-biological/anatomical
> sciences).  So should I be in trade school, because I plan on being a
> computer programmer, or go to college?  Sure, I don't do well in language
> and (depending on the class) some history classes, which, IMHO, are
> weighted more heavily than they should be in both public _and_ private
> schools (and yes, I've been to both), but I don't think that should mean I
> can't go to college...
> 
> Anyway, my point is that there is, at times, a very fine line...
> 
>  --Deviant
> When we write programs that "learn", it turns out we do and they don't.
> 
>