Re: TWA 800 - Serious thread.

At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:

>If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the 
>extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even 
>though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have 
>to become overtly cynical about what's going on.

But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote
on them is known colloquially as "jury duty". 
--
Greg Broiles                |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the subject of
gbroiles@netbox.com         |an in-court demonstration by the People
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt
                            |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 818,825.

Greg Broiles wrote:
> At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
> If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the
> extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even
> though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't
> have to become overtly cynical about what's going on.

> But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to 
> vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
> Greg Broiles                |"Post-rotational nystagmus was the 
> subject of
> gbroiles@netbox.com         |an in-court demonstration by the People
> http://www.io.com/~gbroiles |wherein Sgt Page was spun around by Sgt
>                             |Studdard." People v. Quinn 580 NYS2d 
> 818,825.

I missed a lot of this being off-line for a few days. The jury 
discussion is a good one, but nowadays we have sequestering or no, 
cameras in the court or no cameras, new gag rules all the time, 
including books being published or even planning to be published, the 
"no profit" rules for convictees (or those about to be convicted), and 
don't forget the (gasp!) influential organs such as National Enquirer 
who "digitally enhance" certain photos such as Nicole Simpson, Liza 
Minelli, etc.

If there's a chance of ever cleaning up the justice system, would it 
mean a prosecution of those who promoted the Incubator Baby scam for the 
Gulf War, for example?

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> >If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the
> >extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even
> >though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have
> >to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
> 
> But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote
> on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".

Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't
know they are judging the law as well as the case?

Gary
--
"Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better
than what we have now."  -- Unknown.

pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:

> > But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote
> > on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".

	But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable
	legal practice.

> Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't
> know they are judging the law as well as the case?

	You forgot something else.

	Jury Selection also involves the removal from the jury any
	individual who might have some knowledge about anything which
	might be relevent to the case.

	So the only people on juries are those who are unemployed,
	on uneducated or usually both.  That they are easilly manipulated
	is a further virtue, from the POV of the Injustice system the US 
	has. 

        xan

        jonathon
        grafolog@netcom.com


		The one who does nothing 
			can win over the one who rushes around
			to all the things.

		The one who is gentle 
			can win over the one who is strong.

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, jonathon wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:
> 
> > > But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote
> > > on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".
> 
> 	But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable
> 	legal practice.

And other judges have said the opposite.

EBD


...

Brian Davis wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, jonathon wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:
> But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to 
> vote on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".

> But judges have said that Jury Nullification is not acceptable
> legal practice.

> And other judges have said the opposite.
> EBD

This seems similar to the Declaration-of-Independence argument about the 
"right of the people to overthrow the govt.", etc.

You can't expect the Constitution (a doctrine of law) to provide details 
on extra-legal activities such as violent overthrow of the govt., nor 
can you expect judges to explain in court how to ignore the Law.

And if all else fails, you can try picketing...

A well-written company charter (as an example) would contain provisions 
for exceptions to the charter, not to abrogate or undermine the charter, 
but just as a kind of escape valve. One would note the exception(s) for 
historical purposes, and for purposes of future litigation, and so on.
I can't help but wonder if the U.S. Constitution would have been better 
for something similar to this, instead of pasting on Amendments for 
every little thing.

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In <32367F80.41C67EA6@systemics.com>, on 09/11/96 at 10:59 AM,
   Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com> said:

>Greg Broiles wrote:
>> 
>> At 03:30 PM 9/9/96 -0700, Dale Thorn wrote:
>> 
>> >If govt. protects its "sources and methods", however nefarious, to the
>> >extent that the public is never asked to assent to these methods (even
>> >though a few of us know about them anyway), then the public doesn't have
>> >to become overtly cynical about what's going on.
>> 
>> But the public *is* asked to assent to those methods - your chance to vote
>> on them is known colloquially as "jury duty".

>Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that don't
>know they are judging the law as well as the case?

The form of Government that our Founding Fathers created here in the US was based on
the principle that the citizens were educated, informed, God fearing people with
solid moral principles.

We no longer have such a society if we ever did.

Our citizens are for the most part uneducated, ill-informed, with the moral fiber
that back in 1776 would have found the whole lot of them in stocks in the town
square.

The two major cause of this have been public education & TV.

Now before I get flamed here let me explain my position. :)

Over the past 40-50 yrs. public education has been going down hill. To receive the
education that was once received from 12 yrs of school now requires 16 yrs. We are
graduating greater and greater numbers of students that do not have the basic skills
to survive in the workplace.

There is little or no instruction on government, law, or the Constitution in school.
The majority of citizens are ignorant of the law, of the Constitution (both State &
Federal), of their local government. Incase you doubt this go out and ask some of
your fellow citizens who is on their town counsel, county boards, state
representatives. Ask them how local judges are selected. Who are their local judges
and what are their positions on key political issues.

Now on moral fiber & God fearing:

Every society has recognize that there were some basic rules it's citizens had to
live by inorder for them to survive. Now there can be some debate over individual
rules or how they should be inforced but all societies have agreed that there were
rules that the group as a whole had to live by.

The three major ones:

Don't Kill
Don't Steal
Don't Lie

A majority of our current laws come from these 3 basic principles.

Unfortunately our children are not being taught this. They are not being taught this
by their parents, they are not being taught this by the schools, and the majority of
airtime on TV is teaching them just the opposite.



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