Re: PRESS RELEASE: GERMANY CENSORS DUTCH WEBSITE WWW.XS4ALL.NL

At 8:18 AM 9/6/96, tank wrote:
>Please forward:

>             * * * P R E S S   R E L E A S E * * *
>
>
>GERMANY CENSORS DUTCH WEBSITE WWW.XS4ALL.NL, WITH 3100 WEBPAGES
>
>
>German internetproviders, joined in the Internet Content Taskforce
>(ICTF), started censoring the Dutch website www.xs4all.nl, containing
>3100 personal and commercial homepages. This act of censorship is
>caused by the webpage of a magazine that is banned in Germany, Radikal
>(http://www.xs4all.nl/ ~tank/radikal/).
...

Though my German friends will perhaps feel I am picking on them, this is
not so (this week Germany is in the hot seat, last week it was
Singapore....).

A Modest Proposal:

* as Germany is bent on blocking sites which carry this subversive
pamphlet, "Radikal," let us mirror it on thousands of sites around the
world.

* when the Germans went into Danmark and insisted Jews wear badges,
ordinary citizens (and the Danish Royal Family, as I recall) also took to
wearing these Star of David badges.

* wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if the "Free Speech Blue Ribbon" now
attached to so many pages were to be joined by a "Star of David"? This Star
of David symbol could mean "We support freedom to read, and our site
contains the "Radikal" publication which Germans are forbidden to access."

(I know nothing of how such symbolic campaigns are actually launched and
managed, so I'm suggesting the hint of an idea. I do think mirroring the
banned publication (_any_ banned publication, by _any_ government) on as
many sites as possible is a Good Idea.)

--Tim May

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> 
> Though my German friends will perhaps feel I am picking on them, this is
> not so (this week Germany is in the hot seat, last week it was
> Singapore....).
> 
...the week before it was china.

> 
> * as Germany is bent on blocking sites which carry this subversive
> pamphlet, "Radikal," let us mirror it on thousands of sites around the
> world.
> 
yes, please do.

> 
> * wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if the "Free Speech Blue Ribbon" now
> attached to so many pages were to be joined by a "Star of David"? This Star
> of David symbol could mean "We support freedom to read, and our site
> contains the "Radikal" publication which Germans are forbidden to access."
> 
no, please don't.
there are millions of germans besides bundesanwaltschaft.

rolf
-- 
-----------------------------------------
Rolf Weber <weber@iez.com> | All I ask is a chance
IEZ AG   D-64625 Bensheim  | to prove that money
++49-6251-1309-109         | can't make me happy.

! At 8:18 AM 9/6/96, tank wrote:
! >Please forward:
! 
! >             * * * P R E S S   R E L E A S E * * *
! >
! >
! >GERMANY CENSORS DUTCH WEBSITE WWW.XS4ALL.NL, WITH 3100 WEBPAGES
! >
! >
! >German internetproviders, joined in the Internet Content Taskforce
! >(ICTF), started censoring the Dutch website www.xs4all.nl, containing
! >3100 personal and commercial homepages. This act of censorship is
! >caused by the webpage of a magazine that is banned in Germany, Radikal
! >(http://www.xs4all.nl/ ~tank/radikal/).
! ...
! 
! Though my German friends will perhaps feel I am picking on them, this is
! not so (this week Germany is in the hot seat, last week it was
! Singapore....).
! 
! A Modest Proposal:
! 
! * as Germany is bent on blocking sites which carry this subversive
! pamphlet, "Radikal," let us mirror it on thousands of sites around the
! world.
! 
! * when the Germans went into Danmark and insisted Jews wear badges,
! ordinary citizens (and the Danish Royal Family, as I recall) also took to
! wearing these Star of David badges.
! 
! * wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if the "Free Speech Blue Ribbon" now
! attached to so many pages were to be joined by a "Star of David"? This Star
! of David symbol could mean "We support freedom to read, and our site
! contains the "Radikal" publication which Germans are forbidden to access."
! 
! (I know nothing of how such symbolic campaigns are actually launched and
! managed, so I'm suggesting the hint of an idea. I do think mirroring the
! banned publication (_any_ banned publication, by _any_ government) on as
! many sites as possible is a Good Idea.)

Can someone post an uncensored copy here?  That's a good start.  I 
could repost Jolly Roger which I think I archived, or post
something from Kurt Saxon in de.soc and soc.culture.german for a 
good start!

Timothy C. May wrote:
 
> * as Germany is bent on blocking sites which carry this subversive
> pamphlet, "Radikal," let us mirror it on thousands of sites around the
> world.

Agreed - put them in a dilemna by getting mirrors on machines obviously
important and useful to the Germans.

> * when the Germans went into Danmark and insisted Jews wear badges,
> ordinary citizens (and the Danish Royal Family, as I recall) also took to
> wearing these Star of David badges.

Bad example.  Jews living in Denmark were not required to wear yellow
stars.  The story about the Danish royal family wearing the stars is an
urban legend, spread by the British to make the Danish King appear to be
less of a coward after he fled to England.

Gary
--
"Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better
than what we have now."  -- Unknown.

pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06

Gosh, I'm not a German citizen, and don't even have a nickel's worth of 
german blood in my body, but who will be the first to add some real 
pretty pixtures and some snazzy ol' text adages to THEIR governments' web 
pages?

Life needs more risk.  If we ever EVER hope to establish any sort of 
DISestablishment, it only starts with us.  Well, you.  As I said, I'm not 
German (and quid pro quo, and stuff like that).

;)
Millie
sfuze@tiac.net

PS: Why not mirror it on their own sites? ;)

On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Gary Howland wrote:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
>  
> > * as Germany is bent on blocking sites which carry this subversive
> > pamphlet, "Radikal," let us mirror it on thousands of sites around the
> > world.
> 
> Agreed - put them in a dilemna by getting mirrors on machines obviously
> important and useful to the Germans.
> 
> > * when the Germans went into Danmark and insisted Jews wear badges,
> > ordinary citizens (and the Danish Royal Family, as I recall) also took to
> > wearing these Star of David badges.
> 
> Bad example.  Jews living in Denmark were not required to wear yellow
> stars.  The story about the Danish royal family wearing the stars is an
> urban legend, spread by the British to make the Danish King appear to be
> less of a coward after he fled to England.
> 
> Gary
> --
> "Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better
> than what we have now."  -- Unknown.
> 
> pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
> Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06
> 
>

One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?

-stephan

Stephan Schmidt <schmidt@pin.de> writes:

> One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?

http://www.terrorist.org ?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Stephan Schmidt <schmidt@pin.de> writes:
> > One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> > web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
> 
> http://www.terrorist.org ?

smoke:~> whois terrorist.org
[rs.internic.net]
Terrorist Organization (TERRORIST2-DOM)
   1525 SW 14th #4
   Portland, OR 97201
   US

   Domain Name: TERRORIST.ORG

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact, Billing Contact:
      Sievert, Jerry  (JS651)  jerrys@E-Z.NET
      360-260-1122

   Record last updated on 26-Jun-96.
   Record created on 26-Jun-96.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   E-ZONE.E-Z.NET               205.240.28.1
   NS1.IXA.NET                  199.242.16.1


The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

Stephan Schmidt wrote:

| One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
| web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?

I've given support to at least two terrorist organization, probably
closer to five in the last year.  I can't see supporting one more
would do any more harm.

Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

> One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
> 
> -stephan 

Consdering how none of the above incidents are connected in any way 
to the internet, what do you mean?  And what if there were bomb making 
instructions on the internet and people are killed on account of it,
so what?

Mix roughly equal amounts of potassiam chlorate and red phosphorous 
together while thoroughly wet.  When the mixture dries it becomes a 
fulminating highly explosive mixture that doesn't even contain a 
nitrogen molecule, so seventy pounds of the explosive can be 
brought onto an airplane by passing through the nitrogen bomb 
sniffers in luggage.

You are now a potential terrorist Stephan Schmidt.  If the 
anti-extremists had their way, you will be a top candidate for 
arrest for being a dangerous German, we all know that now, we can 
honestly testify in German court you openly subscribed to an 
internet high tech e-mailing list where terrorist secrets were 
being traded.

How do you feel about being a terrorist, Mr. Schmidt?

> > One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> > web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
> > 
> > -stephan 
> 
> Consdering how none of the above incidents are connected in any way 
> to the internet, what do you mean?  And what if there were bomb making 

Sorry for my bad English, perhaps I got misunderstood.
Would you run a WWW site where the (say there where some)
terrorist who shot down (a wild assumtion too) the TWA plane
claiming it was right and all people should fight 'evil
America'. Because of your web site there are other bomb
attacks in the US (or somewhere else, the country is not that 
important) (although it's of course impossible to proove that
this bombings are 'inspired' by your web site).
Would you support the freedom of speech in this way ?

And to those who misunderstood my posting:
a. I support the freedom of speech.
b. I'm not shure I can support freedom of speech
in ALL circumstances.
c. I wanted to know what other people in this mailing
list thought. Would they support freedom of speech
for everyone ? Under all circumstances ?
(I hope you got my point of view now)
d. I think (hope) I'm a cypherpunk.
e. Don't mistake my opinion with the opinion of
the German Government, which I tried to
make clear (I would be the last
to support the German Government.)

-stephan

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Stephan Schmidt wrote:

> > > One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> > > web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
> > > -stephan 
> > Consdering how none of the above incidents are connected in any way 
> > to the internet, what do you mean?  And what if there were bomb making 
> Sorry for my bad English, perhaps I got misunderstood.
> Would you run a WWW site where the (say there where some)
> terrorist who shot down (a wild assumtion too) the TWA plane
> claiming it was right and all people should fight 'evil
> America'. Because of your web site there are other bomb
> attacks in the US (or somewhere else, the country is not that 
> important) (although it's of course impossible to proove that
> this bombings are 'inspired' by your web site).
> Would you support the freedom of speech in this way ?

     If they paid me to host the site, yes. If I agreed with their reasons
or goals, I might even give them a discount. 

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

> > > One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> > > web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
> > > 
> > > -stephan 
> > 
> > Consdering how none of the above incidents are connected in any way 
> > to the internet, what do you mean?  And what if there were bomb making 
> 
> Sorry for my bad English, perhaps I got misunderstood.
> Would you run a WWW site where the (say there where some)
> terrorist who shot down (a wild assumtion too) the TWA plane
> claiming it was right and all people should fight 'evil
> America'. Because of your web site there are other bomb
> attacks in the US (or somewhere else, the country is not that 
> important) (although it's of course impossible to proove that
> this bombings are 'inspired' by your web site).
> Would you support the freedom of speech in this way ?

	Call me crazy, but maybe if "terrorists" had a web page to 
use to get out their particular message they wouldn't need to go out
and blow things up to get noticed (well, except for the ones in it
just for the sake of blowing things up).

> And to those who misunderstood my posting:
> a. I support the freedom of speech.
> b. I'm not shure I can support freedom of speech
> in ALL circumstances.

	Um, which one is it.

---
Fletch                                                     __`'/|
fletch@ain.bls.com  "Lisa, in this house we obey the       \ o.O'    ______
404 713-0414(w)      Laws of Thermodynamics!" H. Simpson   =(___)= -| Ack. |
404 315-7264(h) PGP Print: 8D8736A8FC59B2E6 8E675B341E378E43  U      ------

On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Stephan Schmidt wrote:

> One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?

     If Iran, the IRA, etc. wanted to pay me to host a web page that 
described their goals and methods, I would.  

     I believe in free speach, and that means even if I disagree. 

     Then again, the only reason I am not a terrorist is that the government
hasn't YET defined hate speach directed against the government to be  
terrorism.

     
     


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

snow <snow@smoke.suba.com> writes:

> On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Stephan Schmidt wrote:
>
> > One thought : How many of you would support terrorist
> > web server (say Oklahoma, TWA, Iran, Lybia, RAF, IRA, ...) ?
>
>      If Iran, the IRA, etc. wanted to pay me to host a web page that
> described their goals and methods, I would.
>
>      I believe in free speach, and that means even if I disagree.
>
>      Then again, the only reason I am not a terrorist is that the government
> hasn't YET defined hate speach directed against the government to be
> terrorism.

You're not talking about the fascist U.S. gubment, are you?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Perhaps my connection is only disrupted accidently, but
I can't access www.xs4all.nl from one account
(the two others still work).
IP tried : 194.109.6.100

SPG: What is the 'new' IP ?
(I hope you don't think I'm a spy for
the German Government :)

Perhaps this time we have to 
proove that it's impossible to 
block an IP/Web site, so that all govs
get a clue about who inet works.

Hmm, some may claim it's better that the
goverment thinks they sucessfully restricted
the access to those pages.
I think they should know what they can't do.

-stephan