Re: We removed radikal 154 from xs4all :(

At 6:31 PM 9/23/96, tank wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>We have temporary removed radikal 154 from xs4all.
>
>We did this because the german ICTF and BAW continued to stop IP-traffic
>to and from xs4all. They not only blocked the web-server (with more than
...


Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.

This will embolden Germany and other nations to apply similar pressures to
other ISPs.

While I don't fully understand the economic pressures the IP-traffic
blockage may have had on your site, it is sad that a user account has been
removed because some foreign government doesn't like it.

My recommendation is that you restore radikal 154's account immediately,
and post a message to all customers and on various Net forums indicating
you will not remove user accounts for materials which do not violate your
own national laws.

--Tim May

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.

	How does this mean that Germany wins? "radikal 154" is still
available all over the world, at almost 50 mirror sites, I beleive
(including http://www.c2.net/radikal/), which are *not* blocked by
Germany.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
C2Net						FAX:     510-986-8777
The Internet Privacy Provider
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net

> 
> > Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.
> 
> 	How does this mean that Germany wins? "radikal 154" is still
> available all over the world, at almost 50 mirror sites, I beleive
> (including http://www.c2.net/radikal/), which are *not* blocked by
> Germany.


Indeed, that's the Xenu "Statue of Liberty" technique, used against
the Cult of $pamology. Helena runs around stepping on ants [some
of whom turn out to be fire-ants]; only to find 4x as many as
before she started...

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 sameer@c2.net wrote:

> 	How does this mean that Germany wins? "radikal 154" is still
> available all over the world, at almost 50 mirror sites, I beleive
> (including http://www.c2.net/radikal/), which are *not* blocked by
> Germany.
 ^^^^^^^^^
ICTF members blocked the site. (?) (Non-members didn't block it.)

They brought one server down, which they didn't like.
So 'they' think, they won. That's the only important thing.

Hmm. Did they stop blocking the ip ? I have access.

-stephan

I agree with Sameer -- I don't think Germany wins.

The information is still online. A quick Altavista search will take you to
it. The mirror sites' continued existence forces Gemany's hand; now
they'll have to try and block the rest of the sites. 

-Declan


On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 sameer@c2.net wrote:

> > Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.
> 
> 	How does this mean that Germany wins? "radikal 154" is still
> available all over the world, at almost 50 mirror sites, I beleive
> (including http://www.c2.net/radikal/), which are *not* blocked by
> Germany.
> 
> -- 
> Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
> C2Net						FAX:     510-986-8777
> The Internet Privacy Provider
> http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net
> 


// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //

> >We have temporary removed radikal 154 from xs4all.
> >
> >We did this because the german ICTF and BAW continued to stop IP-traffic
> >to and from xs4all. They not only blocked the web-server (with more than
> ...
> Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.

Nope, hang on .....

> This will embolden Germany and other nations to apply similar pressures to
> other ISPs.
> 
> While I don't fully understand the economic pressures the IP-traffic
> blockage may have had on your site, it is sad that a user account has been
> removed because some foreign government doesn't like it.

xs4all didn't remove our account. It's still alive and kickin'.

We removed issue 154 _temporary_ so we force the ictf and BAW to block all
48 sites or to stop censoring xs4all. The situation now was that xs4all
had to suffer for having been the first ISP where the radikal was hosted.
We pointed the BAW and the ICTF to all the mirrors and said to them that
their decicion to block xs4all was not enough to block radikal 154 from
german netizens and that censorship will lead to the opposite. They won't
listen and tried to let xs4all pay for not removing radikal 154. 

XS4ALL lost some customers due the blockade.

We (SPG) were the ones who have put the radikal online. We are glad to
have xs4all as isp. They didn't force us to remove the radikal 154. We
did it, and we do it temporary. The issue 154 will be put online as soon
as we think the situation is there.

henk (SPG)

Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> At 6:31 PM 9/23/96, tank wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >We have temporary removed radikal 154 from xs4all.
> 
> Unfortunately, this means that Germany wins.

I partially agree, but then again the stuff is mirrored all over the 
place.  While the Germans are off blocking other sites, xs4all can
re-host the material as soon as the Bundesfeds unblock their 
addresses.  Eventually, I suspect it'd get pretty embarrassing for
the censors.

______c_________________________________________________________________
Mike M Nally * IBM % Tivoli * Austin TX  * How quickly we forget that
mailto:m5@tivoli.com mailto:m101@io.com  * "deer processing" and "data
http://www.io.com/~m101/                 * processing" are different!