Re: Utah as a Religious Police State

I guess that depends on your definition of liberty.  The Mormons
originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion,
and have freedom from persecution.  I suppose one could extend that 
to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant
with their beliefs.  Should that include freedom from interferance from
folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though
you're not presently effected?

     Ryan

---------- Previous Message ----------
To: cypherpunks
cc: 
From: tcmay @ got.net ("Timothy C. May") @ smtp
Date: 09/28/96 10:35:42 PM
Subject: Utah as a Religious Police State

Hey, Attila, let me know where you folks live...I may want to move there!

At 2:56 AM +0000 9/29/96, attila wrote:

>        the population base is changing with an influx of non-Mormons
>    in town, so R rated are showing up at the theatres and video
>    rentals in town.

Just so long as my DSS dish still works in Utah--hey, I'll invite all the
jack Mormons over for tomorrow night's showing of "Inside Janine," on the
"Playboy Channel." (The "Playboy Channel" is kind of tame by video rental
standards, but more crotch shots than we used to see a couple of years ago.)

>        the police visible prescence is effective --a force of 50+ for
>    a population base < 25,000, plus the county sherrif cars and the
>    state police.   Curfew is 10pm weekdays for minors --and they
>    enforce it, big time.  midnight Fri/Sat.

They enforce the "curfew" big time?

Looks like some Mormon pigs need to be zapped.

(My kids don't cotton to no cop telling them when they can be out in public
and when they can't. Any cop who tries to stop my kids from being out has
earned severe retaliation. Any councilmember or state legislator who voted
for such a curfew needs to be hog-tied, covered with tar, then torched.)

I guess this is why I wouldn't last very long in Mormon Country. A fascist
encampment, it sounds like.

(I have no problem with Mormons, or Catholics, or Muslims, or Satanists
keeping _their own_ children indoors after 7, or 5, or whatever their Holy
Hour or Curfew Hour is, but no fucking religious nuts are going to tell
_me_ when _my_ children must be indoors. I determine where my children may
be, and I don't need the State's permission for them to be out. I would
think anyone with an iota of libertarian sentiment would understand this.)

>        ...idle hands are the devil's workshop. you want good solid
>    kids, you start from the gate and keep 'em busy: home, neighbors,
>    school, church, etc.

Do Utah's cops also enforce this law, too?


>            they do not date until they are 16 --in groups.  boys and
>    girls --the same rules.

With the Utah State Police enforcing this "dating curfew"?


(I may sound harsh here, but "curfew" means one and only one thing to me:
somebody restricting my freedom of those of my children to be a public
place. Should one of my children be picked up by cops for doing nothing
illegal, save for being "out past curfew," I'd consider violent response to
be justified. It sounds to me--not that I ever thought otherwise--that Utah
is not a land that favors liberty.)

--Tim May

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Ryan Russell/SYBASE writes:
> I guess that depends on your definition of liberty.  The Mormons
> originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion,
> and have freedom from persecution.  I suppose one could extend that
> to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant
> with their beliefs.  Should that include freedom from interferance from
> folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though
> you're not presently effected?

It's worth noting that one of Utah mormons favorite pastimes was to ambush
the settlers heading for California, kill them all, and take their property.
However the mormons were dealt with much less severely than the local Indians
who tried the same tricks. Pity.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Ryan Russell/SYBASE writes:
> > I guess that depends on your definition of liberty.  The Mormons
> > originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion,
> > and have freedom from persecution.  I suppose one could extend that
> > to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant
> > with their beliefs.  Should that include freedom from interferance from
> > folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though
> > you're not presently effected?
> 
> It's worth noting that one of Utah mormons favorite pastimes was to ambush
> the settlers heading for California, kill them all, and take their property.
> However the mormons were dealt with much less severely than the local Indians
> who tried the same tricks. Pity.
> 

Ah yes, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I was wondering when you might 
trot that little bit of revisionist history out for display. BTW, its 
your revison of history, not the way it was recorded by many other 
sources, including first hand accounts by people who had witnessed the 
whole affair and recorded it in their journals, some of which made it to 
the National Archives and was researched almost 8 years ago in order to 
raise a monument to those mem and women who were felled there courtesy of 
a miscommunication, a late communication and the US Calvary.

You might want to read a *real* historical account of what actually 
happened before sounding off and leading the rest of us to believe you 
are a graduate of the Leon Panneta Fact Reporting School of Spin Doctoring.

...Paul