Re: Snake-Oil FAQ

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It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed
potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously
through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting
on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel
charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some
hairbrained snake-oil peddler.

Krenn

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I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both
excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch)
effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know.

	-Lance

At 5:01 PM -0700 9/17/96, Krenn wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed
>potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously
>through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting
>on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel
>charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some
>hairbrained snake-oil peddler.
>
>Krenn
>
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----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available!
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------

In <v03007808ae6a2dfa2a73@[206.170.115.3]>, on 09/21/96 at 04:47 PM,
   Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> said:

>I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both
>excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch)
>effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know.

I would be intrested in this. I would like to see the following information made
available for any product that made it on to the list:

Detailed listings of pro/cons of the product.

Contact with the authors & listing of any rebutials they may have for the cons.

A appendix to the list explaining why the individule points are a pro or a con for
crypto products.

--
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William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <v03007808ae6a2dfa2a73@[206.170.115.3]>, on 09/21/96 at 04:47 PM,
>    Lance Cottrell <loki@infonex.com> said:
> >I am setting up just such a list. I plan to award products for both
> >excellent and lousy crypto. This really should be a committee (yuch)
> >effort, so if you would like to participate, please let me know. 
> I would be intrested in this. I would like to see the following
> information made available for any product that made it on to the 
> list:
> Detailed listings of pro/cons of the product.
> Contact with the authors & listing of any rebutials they may have for 
> the cons.
> A appendix to the list explaining why the individule points are a pro 
> or a con for crypto products.

When you get right down to it, this calls for a mini-encyclopedia of 
crypto products (or even sub-products such as pre-processors or 
"encryption engines").

The basic outline for any products included (and don't forget, just 
getting included is some sort of endorsement, if you know what I mean) 
could be a feature/bug listing, using common crypto terminology, and 
could be followed by side-by-side argument paragraphs from the author 
and from a reputable review panel.

The usefulness of the list would probably depend on:
1. The participation of all those names people like to name-drop on this
   forum.
2. And/or the quality of the list itself if done without (1.) above.
   In this latter case, it could still be useful, but the variances in
   evaluation owing to personal bias would be difficult to overcome.

At 9:44 AM -0700 9/22/96, Dale Thorn wrote:
<SNIP>
>The basic outline for any products included (and don't forget, just
>getting included is some sort of endorsement, if you know what I mean)
>could be a feature/bug listing, using common crypto terminology, and
>could be followed by side-by-side argument paragraphs from the author
>and from a reputable review panel.
>
>The usefulness of the list would probably depend on:
>1. The participation of all those names people like to name-drop on this
>   forum.
>2. And/or the quality of the list itself if done without (1.) above.
>   In this latter case, it could still be useful, but the variances in
>   evaluation owing to personal bias would be difficult to overcome.

I like your suggestion for layout, and agree with your comments.
It is my hope that "name" people will contact me. Once the site is ready, I
will
be sending out invitations to those who have not already contacted me. I am
looking for a group of 10 or less people. Any other suggestions, comments?

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available!
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------

At 8:00 AM -0700 9/18/96, Mark Rogaski wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>An entity claiming to be Krenn wrote:
>:
>: It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed
>: potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously
>: through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting
>: on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel
>: charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some
>: hairbrained snake-oil peddler.
>:
>
>I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad.  I would much rather
>have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than
>just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products.  Pardon the
>cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc.
>
>mark
>

I agree in principle, but for the foreseeable future I think the list will
be a "good thing".

	-Lance

----------------------------------------------------------
Lance Cottrell   loki@obscura.com
PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server.
Mixmaster, the next generation remailer, is now available!
http://www.obscura.com/~loki/Welcome.html or FTP to obscura.com

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
weasels come."
                        --Nietzsche
----------------------------------------------------------

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An entity claiming to be Lance Cottrell wrote:
: 
: >I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad.  I would much rather
: >have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than
: >just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products.  Pardon the
: >cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc.
: >
: >mark
: >
: 
: I agree in principle, but for the foreseeable future I think the list will
: be a "good thing".
: 

As long as the descriptions of the products are comprehensive.  Concern
about legal issues has been expressed from the beginning.  But, I don't
think that libel/slander laws will be a stumbling block, as long as 
the publication is similar in nature to "Consumer Reports" or somesuch.


: "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly
: it flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night the ice
: weasels come."
:                         --Nietzsche

Matt Groening?

mark

- -- 
    Mark Rogaski   | Why read when you can just sit and |      Member
  GTI System Admin |         stare at things?           | Programmers Local
  wendigo@gti.net  | Any expressed opinions are my own  |     # 0xfffe
 wendigo@pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. |     APL-CPIO

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An entity claiming to be Krenn wrote:
: 
: It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed
: potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously
: through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting
: on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel
: charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some
: hairbrained snake-oil peddler.
: 

I think a blacklist of that sort is inherently bad.  I would much rather
have the public be able to RECOGNIZE SYMPTOMS of snake oil, rather than
just be spoon fed a list of good products vs. bad products.  Pardon the
cliche, but if you give a man a fish ... etc, etc.

mark

- -- 
    Mark Rogaski   | Why read when you can just sit and |      Member
  GTI System Admin |         stare at things?           | Programmers Local
  wendigo@gti.net  | Any expressed opinions are my own  |     # 0xfffe
 wendigo@pobox.com | unless they can get me in trouble. |     APL-CPIO

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Krenn wrote:
> It would be nice to have a list of actual products which are deemed
> potential snake-oil. Such a list could be maintained anonymously
> through a nym to avoid all the annoying legal problems with commenting
> on another's product. Though truth is the best defense against libel
> charges, it would be very annoying to be sued or some such by some
> hairbrained snake-oil peddler.

Think how much more annoying it would be if the shoe were on the other 
foot.