Fuck Cyberpromo

It seems to me that every time I send a message to cypherpunks, I get a 10k
message entitled "RESPONSE FROM CYBERPROMO" from "abusebot@savetrees.com
(Mail AutoResponder)" .

It stands to reason that everyone who posts this list gets the same thing.
I've certainly seen enough people here complain about it.

So. The messages all say send complaints to wallace@cyberpromo.com . That's
what I'm going to do. With every message I get from cyberpromo from now on.

I would expect that if everyone on this list who gets one of these things
-- which I suspect is everyone who posts here lately -- turned right around
and sent it on to this wallace@cyberpromo.com address, those, er,
caprophageous cretins, (thanks, DCF; don't sue me for copyright violations
;-)) would get the hint in a hurry.

I'm starting with the one I have, and, of course, I'll also do it for the
message I get from sending *this* posting.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com)
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

>I'm already doing that.  I began with the very first one I received, and
>instructed him to block all mail to my two domains.  After 3, I began
>invoicing Mr. Wallace $25 per message.  His bill is up to $100 right
>now.  I expect it will go higher (although the snail mail copy _might_
>get more attention than the email).
>
>Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that
>would like to take this when it tops, say, $500?

What contract do you have with savetrees.com that allows you to invoice
them? Do you have a Purchase Order number?

While I certainly am equally annoyed with their crap, I am also annoyed by
all sorts of "unwanted mail" I receive. Including unwanted _physical_ mail.

The "junk fax" law was carefully crafted to cover only continuing,
persistent, and extensive abuse of fax machines....and I'm not even sure it
would stand up in court (lawyers may have a clearer idea). Certainly it is
essentially impossible for me to, upon receiving a fax I "did not ask for,"
to successfully collect on an invoice for, say, $100 (my "fee"). I would
guess, from what I've read about the "junk fax" law, that it might be
useful in a case of persistent, extensive "fax bombing." But probably
useless for small, intermittent messages.

And it is not written to cover e-mail, of course.

Also, there's the risk of a _countersuit_ if an "official-looking" invoice
is sent to a company. Why? Turns out that a scam that is spreading is the
invoicing of companies for supplies and services never actually
provided....many companies are so chaotic and disorganized that they'll pay
invoices submitted to them. When they eventually determine they were paying
for such invoices, they often take the matter to the local fraud folks.

Until "junk e-mail" laws are passed (not that I support them, by the way),
not much can be done.

A precedent-setting case would of course cost a lot of money to follow
through on.

--Tim May

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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In list.cypherpunks, tcmay@got.net writes:

>>Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that
>>would like to take this when it tops, say, $500?
>
> What contract do you have with savetrees.com that allows you to invoice
> them? Do you have a Purchase Order number?

I have records of three warnings to discontinue sending robotic email
harrassments.  I think that 3 instances of "send no mail whatsoever to
the domains of scytale.com and cybrspc.mn.org" carries some weight.

> While I certainly am equally annoyed with their crap, I am also annoyed by
> all sorts of "unwanted mail" I receive. Including unwanted _physical_ mail.

Unwanted physical mail doesn't cost me money to receive.  Unwanted
email, on the other hand, carries a real and calculable cost.  I don't
have flat rate access to a POP mailbox.  I have UUCP mail forwarding for
my 2 domains, carrying hourly connect fees.  How does this differ from
the cost of consumable fax machine supplies?

> The "junk fax" law was carefully crafted to cover only continuing,
> persistent, and extensive abuse of fax machines....and I'm not even sure it
> would stand up in court (lawyers may have a clearer idea).

[...]

> And it is not written to cover e-mail, of course.

IANAL, but at least one interpretation I've read finds a computer, modem and
printer equivalent to a fax machine.  And CyberPromo's mail campaign is
"continuing, persistent, and extensive", given that the messages persist
in the face of no less than 8 demands that they cease.

> Also, there's the risk of a _countersuit_ if an "official-looking" invoice
> is sent to a company. Why? Turns out that a scam that is spreading is the
> invoicing of companies for supplies and services never actually
> provided....

The invoices I send clearly state that the charges are handling fees for
harrassing email, and include dates and message id's.  I'm not invoicing
for copier toner or light bulbs.  I'm keeping copies of the
harrassments, as well.  Therefore, I'm charging for a service actually
provided: that of handling the harrassment.  Let him sue.

> Until "junk e-mail" laws are passed (not that I support them, by the way),
> not much can be done.
>
> A precedent-setting case would of course cost a lot of money to follow
> through on.

True enough, but I'm going to do what I can.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]      roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                Key available from pubkey@scytale.com

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In list.cypherpunks, rah@shipwright.com writes:

> It seems to me that every time I send a message to cypherpunks, I get a 10k
> message entitled "RESPONSE FROM CYBERPROMO" from "abusebot@savetrees.com
> (Mail AutoResponder)" .

I wonder if a 'who cypherpunks' would disclose a subscription from
abusebot@savetrees.com?

> So. The messages all say send complaints to wallace@cyberpromo.com . That's
> what I'm going to do. With every message I get from cyberpromo from now on.

I'm already doing that.  I began with the very first one I received, and
instructed him to block all mail to my two domains.  After 3, I began
invoicing Mr. Wallace $25 per message.  His bill is up to $100 right
now.  I expect it will go higher (although the snail mail copy _might_
get more attention than the email).

Anyone on the list know of a good, heavy-handed collection agency that
would like to take this when it tops, say, $500?
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]      roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                Key available from pubkey@scytale.com

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