Re: NYT on IBM GAK

At 02:03 PM 10/2/96 -0800, you wrote:
>At 08:26 AM 10/2/96 -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, John Young wrote:
>>
>>>    The New York Times, October 2, 1996, pp. D1, D8. 
>>>    Executives of the International Business Machines 
>>>    Corporation said late yesterday that they were still lining 
>>>    up the final list of companies in the alliance. Those 
>>>    involved will include Digital Equipment and smaller 
>>>    data-security companies including RSA Data Security, Cylink 
>>>    and Trusted Information Systems. 
>>
>>We are in deep trouble.
>>--Lucky
>
>Wouldn't a letter-writing campaign be in order here?  
[snip]

The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
participate in this GAK charade.



Rich

Rich <richieb@teleport.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>    The New York Times, October 2, 1996, pp. D1, D8. 
> >>>    Executives of the International Business Machines 
> >>>    Corporation said late yesterday that they were still lining 
> >>>    up the final list of companies in the alliance. Those 
> >>>    involved will include Digital Equipment and smaller 
> >>>    data-security companies including RSA Data Security, Cylink 
> >>>    and Trusted Information Systems. 
> [...]
> 
> The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
> will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
> participate in this GAK charade.

It might be worth people in the US who have connections with any of
the companies who have been reported as signing on to GAK asking their
CEOs, etc. for a statement on the company position wrt GAK.  (To make
sure the boycott is justified, and not the result of bad reporting).

If their reports confirm a pro-GAK stance, their company should be
added to the list of shunned.

Perhaps cypherpunks who currently work for the companies in question
could also find out the story.  If they have an option, they could
perhaps leave in protest, stating GAK governmen sell out as the reason
in their resignation letter.

(I've seen HP, Sun, RSADSI, TIS, Apple, Atalla, DEC, Groupe Bull, IBM,
NCR Corp., and UPS mentioned).  Any confirmations?  Denials?

Adam
--
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

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On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Adam Back wrote:

> (I've seen HP, Sun, RSADSI, TIS, Apple, Atalla, DEC, Groupe Bull, IBM,
> NCR Corp., and UPS mentioned).  Any confirmations?  Denials?

IBM and TIS are definitely pro-GAK.  TIS is selling a firewall that uses
GAKked DES.  IBM has been working on developing the "key recovery" technology.
The article posted here a while ago that told of IBM's plans to support GAK
also said that they were planning to license the technology to Sun and
Netscape.  I don't know about the accuracy of that last statement.

Mark
- -- 
PGP encrypted mail prefered.
Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348
http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/

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On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Mark M. wrote:

> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 20:39:58 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com, Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: boycott GAKkers (was Re: NYT on IBM GAK)
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Adam Back wrote:
> 
> > (I've seen HP, Sun, RSADSI, TIS, Apple, Atalla, DEC, Groupe Bull, IBM,
> > NCR Corp., and UPS mentioned).  Any confirmations?  Denials?
> 
> IBM and TIS are definitely pro-GAK.  TIS is selling a firewall that uses
> GAKked DES.  IBM has been working on developing the "key recovery" technology.
> The article posted here a while ago that told of IBM's plans to support GAK
> also said that they were planning to license the technology to Sun and
> Netscape.  I don't know about the accuracy of that last statement.
> 
> Mark
> - -- 

So really, what it boils down to is that the masses (thats us) have o
crack DES before GAK is imposed.

 --Deviant
"The C Programming Language -- A language which combines the flexibility of
assembly language with the power of assembly language."

Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com> wrote:
[...]
>>>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, John Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>    The New York Times, October 2, 1996, pp. D1, D8.
>>>>    Executives of the International Business Machines
>>>>    Corporation said late yesterday that they were still lining
>>>>    up the final list of companies in the alliance. Those
>>>>    involved will include Digital Equipment and smaller
>>>>    data-security companies including RSA Data Security, Cylink
>>>>    and Trusted Information Systems.
>>>
>>>We are in deep trouble.
>>
>>Wouldn't a letter-writing campaign be in order here?
>[snip]
>
>The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
>will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
>participate in this GAK charade.

Such an initiative will need publicity and letter-writing early in the
campaign will help us set the tone and points of debate on this issue.
A boycott works best when everyone knows why and there are a few key
phrases which can be used to get the message across.  Something like
"company X is helping build big brother, boycott their products" or a
few similar sound bites are needed fast.  The big brother inside stickers
from the last campaign were nice, maybe people can come up with variations
of various corporate logos or marketting phrases which help get the message
across?

jim

You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't 
use Netscape Navigator or PGP?

-Declan


On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Jim McCoy wrote:

> Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >>>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, John Young wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>    The New York Times, October 2, 1996, pp. D1, D8.
> >>>>    Executives of the International Business Machines
> >>>>    Corporation said late yesterday that they were still lining
> >>>>    up the final list of companies in the alliance. Those
> >>>>    involved will include Digital Equipment and smaller
> >>>>    data-security companies including RSA Data Security, Cylink
> >>>>    and Trusted Information Systems.
> >>>
> >>>We are in deep trouble.
> >>
> >>Wouldn't a letter-writing campaign be in order here?
> >[snip]
> >
> >The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
> >will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
> >participate in this GAK charade.
> 
> Such an initiative will need publicity and letter-writing early in the
> campaign will help us set the tone and points of debate on this issue.
> A boycott works best when everyone knows why and there are a few key
> phrases which can be used to get the message across.  Something like
> "company X is helping build big brother, boycott their products" or a
> few similar sound bites are needed fast.  The big brother inside stickers
> from the last campaign were nice, maybe people can come up with variations
> of various corporate logos or marketting phrases which help get the message
> across?
> 
> jim
> 
> 


// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 06:37:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org>
> To: Jim McCoy <mccoy@communities.com>
> Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Fighting Clipper III
> 
> You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't 
> use Netscape Navigator or PGP?
> 
> -Declan
> 

A boycott isn't necisarily non-_USE_.  I'll still use DEC machines,  I
just won't purchase any new ones (as if I could afford to anyway).  I have
PGP,  I've been using PGP,  I will use PGP.  But I'm not going to buy
anything from RSA, even if I previously had been inclined to.


 --Deviant
Try `stty 0' -- it works much better.

Jim McCoy writes:
>  The big brother inside stickers from the last campaign were
>  nice, maybe people can come up with variations of various
>  corporate logos or marketting phrases which help get the
>  message across?

Big Brother Inside stickers are a classic and should be revived.  I would  
like to see a takeoff of the IBM logo since they are the ones who seem to be  
cozying up to the USG the most (with the exception of TIS whom nobody has ever  
heard of).   How about "GAK" in the familiar IBM blue pinstripe logo?  Or  
"IBBM"  International Big Brother Machines?  Everyone recognizes the IBM logo.


andrew

IBM truly does deserve to be criticized, soundly. When I get a chance I'll
write up the report of what happened at yesterday's IBM "let's recruit
industry to join our alliance" confab session that took place in the
afternoon at their DC lobby-office. It was supposedly closed to the 
press. :)

-Declan


On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Andrew Loewenstern wrote:

> Jim McCoy writes:
> >  The big brother inside stickers from the last campaign were
> >  nice, maybe people can come up with variations of various
> >  corporate logos or marketting phrases which help get the
> >  message across?
> 
> Big Brother Inside stickers are a classic and should be revived.  I would  
> like to see a takeoff of the IBM logo since they are the ones who seem to be  
> cozying up to the USG the most (with the exception of TIS whom nobody has ever  
> heard of).   How about "GAK" in the familiar IBM blue pinstripe logo?  Or  
> "IBBM"  International Big Brother Machines?  Everyone recognizes the IBM logo.
> 
> 
> andrew
> 


// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //

At 6:37 AM -0700 10/3/96, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't
>use Netscape Navigator or PGP?

We should be happy that both Netscape and Microsoft are conspicuously
missing from the list of GAK conspirators. We need to somehow keep it this
way.

On the list of GAK conspirators itself, this just confirms the "behind the
doors key escrow deal" I wrote about more than two years ago (check the
archives, for August 1994, under the thread name "Software Key Escrow" or
something close to this). A person within Microsoft confirmed to me that a
deal was being cut to put key escrow into _software_, rather than the
Clipper chip-based hardware option which was then dominant in the
discussions. (The plan followed revelations of a TIS-NSA-Berkeley axis that
developed in early '94 and that was made semi-public at the Karlsruhe,
Germany conference in the spring of '94.)

That Bill Gates has since come out strongly against software key escrow,
and that Microsoft has not joined this deal, is terribly important.
Netscape has also spoken against mandatory key escrow systems, in the
person of James Barksdale. (I'm not sure what Jim Clarke's position is
these days, after his much-discussed pro-GAK comments of about a year ago;
in any case, he's no longer actively supporting GAK from what I can see.)

Question: If RSADSI supports GAK, and Netscape/Microsoft license some
technologies from RSADSI, could Netscape or Microsoft then be forced to
adopt GAK?

(Personally, I don't see how. The core crypto routines might be licensed,
but these deals were probably negotiated a while back. But who knows?)

I think we should support Microsoft and Netscape in their nonparticipation
in the Cabal. Sometimes being an 800-pound gorilla has its advantages.

--Tim May

We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
> I think we should support Microsoft and Netscape in their nonparticipation
> in the Cabal. Sometimes being an 800-pound gorilla has its advantages.

Indeed we do need to support Netscape and <sigh> Microsoft as long as 
they oppose GAK.

--Lucky, who meant to buy a new PowerBook 5300 for his girlfriend this 
week and who now will get her a Win95 machine because of Apple's support for 
GAK. I'm glad I didn't buy it yet. Apple, are you listening?

At 7:13 pm -0400 10/3/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> GAK, or Girlfriend's Access to Keys, is indeed a very scary thing.

Ah.  Maybe we should cross-post this to alt.tasteless?

> "Macintosh, the Surveillance System for the Rest of Us."
>
> (Why Apple would go along with this, while Microsoft and Netscape are
> apparently not playing ball, is incomprehensible to me. Apple risks
> alienating its remaining core user base, who often characterize Microsoft
> as "the Borg." So, Apple capitulates, while MS does not. I guess the
> "Macintosh Crypto Forum" didn't do a lot of good, did it?)

Ouch.

My first reaction to the above was to say, "Oh, Yeah??? Well, you're ugly,
buddy, and your mother dresses you funny, too!" But, I won't upset the
decorum of so august a forum with such eggregious classlessness. Not here
on cypherpunks. :-).


If one were to be completely uncharitable in the interpretation of Tim's
most recent outbreak of vitriol here, it would seem that he's offended that
he wasn't asked first to be the keynote at MacCrypto, the conference a
bunch of us had at Apple a month ago, which, I might add, was a
considerable success.

Of course, the real irony here is that Tim *was* the first person we asked
to keynote. The irony compounds itself slightly more when you consider the
*last* person who we asked, Phil Zimmermann, at the *last* possible minute,
graciously accepted our invitation and delivered his keynote speech to a
very enthusiastic crowd.

Unfortunately, it may be a speaking engagement Phil regrets now, in light
of Apple's apparent participation in the most recent Washington GAK-fest.
:-{.


Anyway, let us *be* charitable, and take Tim's apparent vituperation about
Apple's complete capitulation to government pressure, not to mention the
appalling failure of the MacCrypto conference to lob any clues over the
walls of Fortress Apple, entirely at their face value, shall we?

Let's assume that he really *wasn't* trying to rattle the bars on the Mac
crypto community's collective cage, and that he actually was trying to
contribute something constructive to what appears to be a *truly* apalling
situation to anyone who wants strong crypto, and thus internet commerce, to
be transparent and easy to do on the Macintosh. The Mac crypto community's
cage is plenty rattled by the recent news from Washington, as it is.


With that in mind, the best thing most of us can figure is that Ellen
Hancock, Apple's chief technology officer, freshly hired from IBM, is in
the process of pulling the same kind of crypto-boner for Apple that
Netscape's CEO did last year about this time. Frankly, people who run
industrial organizations like Apple, and, I might add, Microsoft, don't
really understand yet that internet commerce *is* financial cryptography,
and, of course, that means strong, and un-GAKked, crypto.

I'm sure that the people on the mac-crypto list and the rest of the Mac
internet community in general will disabuse her of this notion rather
quickly.


By the way, most of the hard core of 70 or so people who came to the
MacCrypto conference, those who sat through the whole thing from start to
finish, were from outside Apple. Clearly, as far as crypto on the Mac goes,
the word "evangelism" cuts both ways.

However, we got some very good stuff from the Apple folks who did come,
including a soon to be released entropy manager -- with public source code
-- and a public-key "keychain" project -- with public source code -- , and
a volunteer of development participation in serious crypto projects from an
Apple fellow (who, by definition, can do anything he wants) and his staff.


Frankly, I'd rather see actual code being written than press releases,
wouldn't you, Tim?

Even if the code isn't on an Intel Pentium Pro 200 using the Microsoft
CryptoAPI...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com)
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender."
                -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard,
                       for Bart Simpson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> writes:

> If one were to be completely uncharitable in the interpretation of Tim's
> most recent outbreak of vitriol here, it would seem that he's offended that

Tim is an ignorant asshole who knows nothing about cryptography and floods
this mailing list with inane rants and personal attacks.  I recommend that
he be massively killfiled.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 11:20 pm -0400 10/3/96, Timothy C. May wrote:

> My comments here are not vitriolic, just factual. Clearly, while the
> "guerilla" crypto meeting was happening, the higher-ups were selling out
> their customers and going much further than they needed to in ensuring a
> Big Brother State.

Indeed. Welcome to the club, Tim.

I'm reminded of all those c'punk meetings at places like Sun, or SGI, or
any of several Bay Area landmark firms, all of whom have managements full
of people who think they're "doing the right thing" by helping the Feds spy
on us all. That's okay. Cypherpunks, some of them, anyway, write code. And
so, your point is?


> (BTW, in response to my "the surveillance system for the rest of us"
> comment, Andrew Loewenstern sent me a note in which he contrasted Apple's
> "1984" commercial with the current reality.)

Talking about people's private mail in the third person, Tim? It seems I'm
not the only one guilty of such stuff. At least I don't post names with the
opinions, though I shouldn't have posted anything in the first place. If
you remember, it is something which I apologized to the list for at the
time. It was late. I was tired. And, I might add, you were pissing on my
shoes. Fortunately, I wear my seaboots around here, given our past history
on this list.


> This is the epitome of armchair psychoananalysis. How can you _possibly_
> know what I thought about things? Jeez.

Nope. Can't tell what you think, Tim. Just an opinion. I'm just engaging in
a little constant conjunction; to take a leaf from Mr. Hume's book. That
is, however right he may be most of the time, Tim May seems to have an ego
the size of the Hindenburg, and he can be just about as inflamatory, when
he says he's been slighted. If you get in the way of that ego at all,
regardless of your facts, he will flame you to your shorts. Happens every
time. Impute causality however you want. The phenomena are clearly linked.

Must be what happens when you're holed up out in the woods all day with
nothing to keep you company but a mailing list.

> Who cares? Such comparisons are odious. I responded to Vinnie, not to the
> "us" implied in "we asked," and the matter would've remained between Vinnie
> and me had he not shared our e-mail with you and had you not then gone into
> one of your  "free association" rants. Recall that even Vinnie was highly
> critical of this performance.

Depends on what you call "highly". It seems that if you hadn't gone into a
towering snit, he probably wouldn't have said anything, because I was
right. And, my point still stands. You were behaving childishly. Both to
Vinnie then, to the list then, and to me and the list now.

By the way, "we", Vinnie and I, are the people who put MacCrypto together.
Admittedly, Vinnie did all the work, but it was ever thus. :-). You say, X
is important, we should do it, Vinnie says fine, let's do X, and Vinnie
makes it happen. I've never worked with anyone quite like that before. It's
very refreshing...


Frankly, Tim, you could have just let it pass, or at least have been more
of an adult about it, constitutionally impossible though that might be for
you. Inadvertantly, your churlishness probably increased the attendance at
the MacCrypto conference. So, thanks anyway. *I* certainly got lots of
positive comments about our interchange. ;-).


> Fuck off, to be blunt. You've got to learn to start making actual points,
> and not trying to show your writing chops from the Hunter S. Thompson
> Correspondence School of Creative Writing.

Ah. Tim, are you *jealous*? Of me? Aw, shucks...  And *your* mother wears
army boots, too.


However, in case you missed them, probably because the blood vessels in
your eyes were busy hemoraging, I *did* make several points. Allow me to
summarize again. They are:

1. Tim's lashing out at Apple because he feels slighted by not being
invited first to keynote the MacCrypto conference, though he was in fact
invited first, which makes it all mildly ironic, if not humorous.

2. Instead of Tim, Phil Zimmermann *did* speak at MacCrypto, which Phil
probably regrets, given the current Mac-GAK flap.

3. Apple's Ms. Hancock, whether or not she's "doing the right thing" by
helping the Feds spy on us all, or whether she just thinks corporate, but
not government, key "recovery" is, by itself, okay, has clearly stuck her
foot in her mouth, in the much same way that Mr. Barksdale(?) of Netscape
did last year. Unfortunately, Apple probably won't be as quick to react as
Netscape was, because, as an industrial corporation -- like Microsoft --
Apple may live *on* the net, but it is certainly certainly not *in* the
net, like Netscape, or you, or I am, Tim.

4. I expect that the people in the Macintosh Crypto community, and the Mac
internet community in general, will do their best to disabuse her of any
notions she may have in regard to GAK. It has already started to happen.

5. A lot of real good work was done at MacCrypto, which was a resounding
success, despite Tim's early efforts to piss all over it, which he seems to
be carrying forward to the present. No problem. That's what seaboots are
for.


> Fuck off. Back into my killfile you go.

Ah. A waste of a good summary. Oh, well. :-).

It's interesting to note that the only person who is supposed to be in your
killfile is Perry Metzger, even though you respond to him anyway,
especially when he says something which offends your vanity. So, such a
killfiling claim is probably dubious.  Since such luminaries as VZNuri, Dr.
Vulis, and Jim Bell are *not* in your killfile, evidenced by your
voluminous replies to them, your killfiling me can't be much of a threat,
on its face, or, for that matter, to my reputation here on cypherpunks,
even. ;-).

And, no, Tim, *I'm* not going to put you in my killfile, because *almost*
always, though it's becoming harder to see for all the fulminatory
theatrics, you're spot on.

I believe that, for some reason, I got off on the wrong foot with you from
my very first posting, more than two years ago last June. Your nasty crack
about the MacCrypto conference is just one of a series of personal
fusilades in what seems to be an ongoing pissfight. I bet you wouldn't have
given MacCrypto a passing thought, otherwise. The cost of doing business on
cypherpunks, I suppose. One gets used to it.

So, have a nice day, Tim, and don't forget your seaboots. It's getting wet
out here. Again.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga





-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com)
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender."
                -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard,
                       for Bart Simpson
The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

At 1:17 PM -0700 10/3/96, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
>> I think we should support Microsoft and Netscape in their nonparticipation
>> in the Cabal. Sometimes being an 800-pound gorilla has its advantages.
>
>Indeed we do need to support Netscape and <sigh> Microsoft as long as
>they oppose GAK.
>
>--Lucky, who meant to buy a new PowerBook 5300 for his girlfriend this
>week and who now will get her a Win95 machine because of Apple's support for
>GAK. I'm glad I didn't buy it yet. Apple, are you listening?

GAK, or Girlfriend's Access to Keys, is indeed a very scary thing.

"Macintosh, the Surveillance System for the Rest of Us."

(Why Apple would go along with this, while Microsoft and Netscape are
apparently not playing ball, is incomprehensible to me. Apple risks
alienating its remaining core user base, who often characterize Microsoft
as "the Borg." So, Apple capitulates, while MS does not. I guess the
"Macintosh Crypto Forum" didn't do a lot of good, did it?)

--Tim



"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 8:48 PM -0400 10/3/96, Robert Hettinga wrote:

>If one were to be completely uncharitable in the interpretation of Tim's
>most recent outbreak of vitriol here, it would seem that he's offended that

My comments here are not vitriolic, just factual. Clearly, while the
"guerilla" crypto meeting was happening, the higher-ups were selling out
their customers and going much further than they needed to in ensuring a
Big Brother State.

(BTW, in response to my "the surveillance system for the rest of us"
comment, Andrew Loewenstern sent me a note in which he contrasted Apple's
"1984" commercial with the current reality.)

>he wasn't asked first to be the keynote at MacCrypto, the conference a
>bunch of us had at Apple a month ago, which, I might add, was a
>considerable success.

This is the epitome of armchair psychoananalysis. How can you _possibly_
know what I thought about things? Jeez.

>Of course, the real irony here is that Tim *was* the first person we asked
>to keynote. The irony compounds itself slightly more when you consider the
>*last* person who we asked, Phil Zimmermann, at the *last* possible minute,
>graciously accepted our invitation and delivered his keynote speech to a
>very enthusiastic crowd.

Who cares? Such comparisons are odious. I responded to Vinnie, not to the
"us" implied in "we asked," and the matter would've remained between Vinnie
and me had he not shared our e-mail with you and had you not then gone into
one of your  "free association" rants. Recall that even Vinnie was highly
critical of this performance.

>Anyway, let us *be* charitable, and take Tim's apparent vituperation about
>Apple's complete capitulation to government pressure, not to mention the
>appalling failure of the MacCrypto conference to lob any clues over the
>walls of Fortress Apple, entirely at their face value, shall we?
>
>Let's assume that he really *wasn't* trying to rattle the bars on the Mac
>crypto community's collective cage, and that he actually was trying to
>contribute something constructive to what appears to be a *truly* apalling
>situation to anyone who wants strong crypto, and thus internet commerce, to
>be transparent and easy to do on the Macintosh. The Mac crypto community's
>cage is plenty rattled by the recent news from Washington, as it is.

Fuck off, to be blunt. You've got to learn to start making actual points,
and not trying to show your writing chops from the Hunter S. Thompson
Correspondence School of Creative Writing.


>Frankly, I'd rather see actual code being written than press releases,
>wouldn't you, Tim?

Fuck off. Back into my killfile you go.

--Tim May

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 1:17 PM -0700 10/3/96, Lucky Green wrote:
> >On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >> I think we should support Microsoft and Netscape in their nonparticipation
> >> in the Cabal. Sometimes being an 800-pound gorilla has its advantages.
> >Indeed we do need to support Netscape and <sigh> Microsoft as long as
> >they oppose GAK.

[some text deleted]

> (Why Apple would go along with this, while Microsoft and Netscape are
> apparently not playing ball, is incomprehensible to me. Apple risks
> alienating its remaining core user base, who often characterize Microsoft
> as "the Borg." So, Apple capitulates, while MS does not. I guess the
> "Macintosh Crypto Forum" didn't do a lot of good, did it?)

[more text deleted]

At the risk of offending some people, it occurs to me that there were 
considerable arguments going around about Windows etc. copying ideas 
from Apple Mac and so on, but looking at it from the other end, since 
when does the appearance of crypto programs on a Mac make it something 
it's not?

Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org> writes:
>You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't
>use Netscape Navigator or PGP?

Actually RSA is not a hard target for people like us to threaten.  The
Diffie-Hellman patent expires in 210 days.  Cylink is prevented from taking
legal action against anyone for violating this patent while the current
lawsuit is being decided.  When Diffie-Hellman expires ElGamal is available
for use for free.  So the best threat one can make against RSA is to directly
challenge their revenue stream: start working on making ElGamal an available
option in all systems which use RSA.

jim

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Jim McCoy wrote:

> Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org> writes:
> >You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't
> >use Netscape Navigator or PGP?
> 
> Actually RSA is not a hard target for people like us to threaten.  The
> Diffie-Hellman patent expires in 210 days.  Cylink is prevented from taking
> legal action against anyone for violating this patent while the current
> lawsuit is being decided.  When Diffie-Hellman expires ElGamal is available
> for use for free.  So the best threat one can make against RSA is to directly
> challenge their revenue stream: start working on making ElGamal an available
> option in all systems which use RSA.

Rabin public-key encryption will also be free when the D-H patent expires.
This has the big advantage that it can use current RSA keys as long as the
keys use blum integers (PGP does, I think).  Breaking Rabin is provably as
difficult as factoring.

Mark
- -- 
PGP encrypted mail prefered.
Key fingerprint = d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348
http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/

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Jim McCoy <mccoy@communities.com> writes:
> Declan McCullagh <declan@eff.org> writes:
> >You'll have trouble doing a successful boycott of RSA. What, you won't
> >use Netscape Navigator or PGP?
> 
> Actually RSA is not a hard target for people like us to threaten.  The
> Diffie-Hellman patent expires in 210 days.  Cylink is prevented from taking
> legal action against anyone for violating this patent while the current
> lawsuit is being decided.  When Diffie-Hellman expires ElGamal is available
> for use for free.  So the best threat one can make against RSA is to directly
> challenge their revenue stream: start working on making ElGamal an available
> option in all systems which use RSA.

PGPfone uses Diffie-Hellman.  PGP 3.0 is using El Gamal.

Seems Zimmermann/PGP Inc are already not using RSA, for patent reasons
I think.  Also I believe they are not using IDEA either, and using
CAST, Blowfish, 3DES in PGPfone, 3DES in PGP 3.0(?).  (Ascom-tech got
greedy).

Adam
--
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Jim McCoy wrote:

> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:46:58 -0800
> From: Jim McCoy <mccoy@communities.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Fighting Clipper III
> 
> Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >>>On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, John Young wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>    The New York Times, October 2, 1996, pp. D1, D8.
> >>>>    Executives of the International Business Machines
> >>>>    Corporation said late yesterday that they were still lining
> >>>>    up the final list of companies in the alliance. Those
> >>>>    involved will include Digital Equipment and smaller
> >>>>    data-security companies including RSA Data Security, Cylink
> >>>>    and Trusted Information Systems.
> >>>
> >>>We are in deep trouble.
> >>
> >>Wouldn't a letter-writing campaign be in order here?
> >[snip]
> >
> >The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
> >will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
> >participate in this GAK charade.
> 
> Such an initiative will need publicity and letter-writing early in the
> campaign will help us set the tone and points of debate on this issue.
> A boycott works best when everyone knows why and there are a few key
> phrases which can be used to get the message across.  Something like
> "company X is helping build big brother, boycott their products" or a
> few similar sound bites are needed fast.  The big brother inside stickers
> from the last campaign were nice, maybe people can come up with variations
> of various corporate logos or marketting phrases which help get the message
> across?
> 
> jim
> 

I agree wholeheartedly.  A boycott will be usefull, as would letter
writing campaigns, bumper stickers, etc.  The entire idea, though , must
be _VERY PUBLIC_ to be useful.

 --Deviant
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what
the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be
replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.  There is another
theory which states that this has already happened.
                -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

Rich Burroughs wrote:

| The word "boycott" leaped into my mind.  I personally do not believe that I
| will be buying products from any of these companies, as long as thay
| participate in this GAK charade.

	Folks,

	Lets be reasonable.  Its time to jump on board the GAK
bandwagon.  After all, where better to disrupt the music?  We need to
start writing GAK software, and it better be up to the high standards
that the NSA sets for itself.

	Once we've written it, and its being distributed, we can say
'See, another broken bit of GAK software.  Not even the NSA could get
it right.  Our data is too important to be using broken software to
protect us.'

	And we have 56 bit exportability in hand.


Adam

-- 
"Every year the Republicans campaign like Libertarians, and then go to
Wasthington and spend like Democrats."

Vote Harry Browne for President.  http://www.harrybrowne96.org