Re: Missionaries (was: "Mormon Asshole?" re: GAK)

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT), John C. Randolph wrote:

>What's really sad is the way that every cult member tries to convince
>himself that *his* franchise has more to offer than Lifespring,

Food for thought:  suppose he didn't - why would any rational individual
follow a religion he thought was wrong?

#  Chris Adams <adamsc@io-online.com>   | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp
#  <cadams@acucobol.com>		 | send mail with subject "send PGPKEY"
"That's our advantage at Microsoft; we set the standards and we can change them."
   --- Karen Hargrove, Microsoft (quoted in the Feb 1993 Unix Review editorial)

In <19961006045736515.AAA164@GIGANTE>, on 10/05/96 
   at 09:58 PM, Adamsc@io-online.com (Adamsc) said:

-.On Sat, 5 Oct 1996 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT), John C. Randolph wrote:

-.>What's really sad is the way that every cult member tries to convince
-.>himself that *his* franchise has more to offer than Lifespring,

-.Food for thought:  suppose he didn't - why would any rational individual
-.follow a religion he thought was wrong?


        that statement is profound in more ways that in religion!  why
    would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
    wrong!

> 
> In <19961006045736515.AAA164@GIGANTE>, on 10/05/96 
>    at 09:58 PM, Adamsc@io-online.com (Adamsc) said:
> -.On Sat, 5 Oct 1996 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT), John C. Randolph wrote:
> -.>What's really sad is the way that every cult member tries to convince
> -.>himself that *his* franchise has more to offer than Lifespring,
> -.Food for thought:  suppose he didn't - why would any rational individual
> -.follow a religion he thought was wrong?
> 
>         that statement is profound in more ways that in religion!  why
>     would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
>     wrong!

     For the money.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

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Roy M. Silvernail wrote:
> 
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Try signing your messages in the clear next time, since this sort of
message is a little awkward to read.

Gary
--
"Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better
than what we have now."  -- Unknown.

pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06

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In list.cypherpunks, roy@scytale.com writes:

> -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----

Oops, sorry folks.  Seems I hit the wrong key.  What I meant to say was:

| In list.cypherpunks, attila@primenet.com writes:
|
| > .Food for thought:  suppose he didn't - why would any rational individual
| > .follow a religion he thought was wrong?
| >
| >
| >         that statement is profound in more ways that in religion!  why
| >     would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
| >     wrong!
|
| What about when the individual stands to gain from the cause while not
| subject to the negative effects?  Politicians come readily to mind.
- -- 
           Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]      roy@scytale.com
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                Key available from pubkey@scytale.com

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attila <attila@primenet.com> sez:
> why would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
> wrong!

Biblical creationism is "wrong": there's ample evidence that the Earth
is *much* more than 6000 years old.  Yet lots of seemingly rational
people believe biblical creationism.

Newtonian mechanics is "wrong".  Even an tiny velocity causes space-
and time-dilation, even a vanishingly small mass distorts spacetime,
and Heisenberg's principle applies to macroscopic objects too - it's
just hard to detect these effects under the conditions we're used to.
But you won't catch me using general relativity to calculate catapult
ranges.

Humans only have 2 kinds of colors receptors, so artists can mix
colors and get seemingly new colors.  That doesn't mean that blue and
yellow paint mixed together will reflect monochromatic green.  People
who try to transfer images from one medium to another suddenly have to
confront the more complicated reality.  Surely that doean't make my
kindergarten art teacher irrational for telling me about color mixing.

Or maybe it does.  Excuse me, I need to find my crayons...

Stephen

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Stephen Humble wrote:
> > Biblical creationism is "wrong": there's ample evidence that the
> > Earth is *much* more than 6000 years old.  Yet lots of seemingly
> > rational people believe biblical creationism.
> 
> Which years?  The very definition of the Christian God encompasses all
> ultimate things, including the ability to make the Earth look like 
> it's billions of years old, with *all* "evidence" in place.

And Christian theology also offers an explanation as to why God would do
such a thing: so that faith is required for belief.

Logic is of no use in theological discussions.  Not because people are
incapable of understanding or applying it, but because they have already
applied it.  Given its own definitions and axioms, every belief system
I've encountered is pretty rational, and I've dealt with more than a
few.  As a Mormon missionary I spent quite a bit of time discussing
theology with people :-)

Shawn.

--
Shawn Willden
swillden@cs.weber.edu

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Stephen Humble wrote:

> attila <attila@primenet.com> sez:
> > why would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
> > wrong!
> 

Perhaps he wishes to marry Anne Bolyn ...

Perhaps he/she is not religious at all, but finds the need to follow the 
herd for social, political, or business reasons ...

Can we kill this inane thread?

-r.w.

Stephen Humble wrote:
> attila <attila@primenet.com> sez:
> > why would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
> > wrong!

> Biblical creationism is "wrong": there's ample evidence that the Earth
> is *much* more than 6000 years old.  Yet lots of seemingly rational
> people believe biblical creationism.

Which years?  The very definition of the Christian God encompasses all 
ultimate things, including the ability to make the Earth look like it's 
billions of years old, with *all* "evidence" in place.  There are some 
fascinating videos from Mt. St. Helens(?) which suggest possibilities 
not found in the common literature....

There can be only one point here (outside of a purely religious 
discourse), and that is that religion is a matter of faith, not of 
physical proofs.  Those spiritual beings can walk in your world (by 
definition), but you can't walk in theirs, or at least you can't prove 
it to the average cypherpunks subscriber.

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Stephen Humble wrote:

> attila <attila@primenet.com> sez:
> > why would any rational individual espouse ANY cause he thought was
> > wrong!
> 
> Biblical creationism is "wrong": there's ample evidence that the Earth
> is *much* more than 6000 years old.  Yet lots of seemingly rational
> people believe biblical creationism.
> 

The "evidence" is based upon the belief that such techniques as carbon 
dating and statistical radio active half life bearing rocks give an 
accurate measurement of time as we know it. Geologically speaking, we are 
just pissing in the fan to see which way it blows and calling it good. 
And, considering the number of text books and egos to be restrung if it 
was ever conclusively proven wrong would be devastating to say the least to 
the current crop of scientists.

As someone once said (I believe it was Samuel Clemens), "There are lies, 
damn lies, and statistics."

> Newtonian mechanics is "wrong".  Even an tiny velocity causes space-
> and time-dilation, even a vanishingly small mass distorts spacetime,
> and Heisenberg's principle applies to macroscopic objects too - it's
> just hard to detect these effects under the conditions we're used to.
> But you won't catch me using general relativity to calculate catapult
> ranges.
> 

Newtonian mechanics is not "wrong", just an obeservation of mechanical 
behavior at a macro level of abstraction. Newton built on Keppler's work, 
and Eienstein upon Newton's, each refining the other's observation 
towards the true nature of matter and it's behavior in this realm.

Eienstein was nothing more than a clever observer, and QED is workable 
bullshit based upon those operations. Ever wonder why we have fudge 
factors in our calculations? We don't why they work, they just do. This 
tells me we ain't home yet.

> Humans only have 2 kinds of colors receptors, so artists can mix
> colors and get seemingly new colors.  That doesn't mean that blue and
> yellow paint mixed together will reflect monochromatic green.  People
> who try to transfer images from one medium to another suddenly have to
> confront the more complicated reality.  Surely that doean't make my
> kindergarten art teacher irrational for telling me about color mixing.
> 
> Or maybe it does.  Excuse me, I need to find my crayons...
> 

MIxing too many metaphors. All is see is gray...:-)

...Paul