NODE d637c3b5[JIM RAY] Does anyone have the complaint number for Florida Barr Assocoation?
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
I want to complaint to the FLoria Bar Association about Jim Ray sending
complaints to postmaster@bwalk.dm.com (quoted before). Can someone
please post their contact address?
The lying motherfucker's resume follows.
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JAMES M. RAY
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JAMES M. RAY
1150 Madruga Ave. #A-101
Coral Gables, FL 33146
(305) 666-1029
http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray
e-mail liberty@gate.net
EDUCATION:
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI SCHOOL OF LAW
Juris Doctor - May 1995
Coral Gables, Florida
* Society of Bar & Gavel, LAW SCHOOL NEWSPAPER OPINIONS EDITOR
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
Bachelor of Science, Psychology - May 1986
Gainesville, Florida
EXPERIENCE:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
Sept. 1994 to May 1995
Southern District of Florida
* legal Intern For US District Judge William M. Hoeveler
Attended trials and hearings. Wrote memoranda and orders. Conducted Lexis, Westlaw,
and library research on a range of civil and criminal law issues including: possible
fines in a corporate contempt of Court proceeding, 2255 prisoner claims, insurance,
drug-smuggling and failed Savings & Loan cases. Organized and updated library.
DADE COUNTY GUARDIAN AD LITEM PROGRAM
Jan. 1994 to Aug. 1994
Miami, Florida
* Volunteer Summer Intern, GAL
Spoke for children in family Court hearings. Conducted interviews and investigations.
Wrote reports, memoranda for attorneys, and performance agreement contracts.
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI
Oct. 1993 to Aug. 1994
Miami, Florida
* research Assistant For Law Professor Susan Stefan
Conducted legal and CD-ROM database research for articles and speeches.
Assisted in preparation of an ADA lawsuit.
PEKNY INDUSTRIES, INC.
1987 to 1990
St. Petersburg, Florida
* Small Business Partner, Vice-president & Director of Marketing
Supervised and performed research at the United States Patent & Trademark Office.
Consistently the top anchor seller at boat shows. Analyzed and satisfied customer
needs.
FLORIDA STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Election 1992
Dade County, Florida
* Libertarian Party Candidate for District 113
Ran successful local and statewide ballot access petition drives.
Participated in panel discussions and debates. Held TV and newspaper interviews.
Organized a lean, clean campaign.
CHARLOTTE COUNTY ORANGE GROVE
1978 to Present
Punta Gorda, Florida
* Farmer (part time)
Transported and sold citrus and exotic fruit.
ACTIVITIES:
PADI Advanced Open Water SCUBA Diver. Competent sailor, fisherman and power boater.
Florida State House Messenger. Volunteer high-school teacher. Recording for the Blind
law book reader. Hurricane Andrew volunteer. Internet Guide. Amateur HTML
Programming. PGP encryption teaching for e-mail confidentiality and authentication.
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Return to Jim's Home Page
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NODE c3fa4a20Re: [JIM RAY] Does anyone have the complaint number for Florida Barr Assocoation?
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT)
Vulis, grow up.
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE 5bba82a8Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in the genocide of 2,500,000 moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> Vulis, grow up.
>
> =============================================================================
> + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
> \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
> <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
> /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
> + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
> ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
> If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
> ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
My friend and colleague, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited the following sources
in reference to Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:
_The Jewish Times_ June 21, 1990
_An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound._
A. Lalayan, _Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East)_
No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.
-One of the architects of the Armenian genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people_
_I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is
sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best
way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into
wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones,
as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children,
threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live
on this earth._
Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926).
_Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
_Foreword:_
_For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar
mosque, the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near
the border of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of
evening I asked Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history
of the village and the cause of its destruction. In his matter of
fact way he replied, Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction,
and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to-day
scattered among its ruins._
p. 218 (first and second paragraphs)
_We Armenians did not spare the Muslims. If persisted in, the
slaughtering of Tartars, the looting, and the rape and massacre
of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted
as a matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the
ground, in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. Muslims
had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died
as soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage,
with weapons in their hands, and exchanging blow for blow. They had
died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting
with horror worse than death itself._
Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926).
_Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 15 (second paragraph)
_The Tartars [Muslims] were, for the most part, poor. Some of them
lived in villages and cultivated small farms; many of them continued
in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers. They drove their
flocks and herds from valley to valley, from plain to mountain, and
from mountain to plain, following the pasturage as it changed with
the seasons. They ranged from the salt desert shores of the Caspian
Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains. Even the village Tartars
are a primitive people, only semicivilized.
I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and,
while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country,
regarded and treated them as inferiors._
p. 20 (second paragraph)
_Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the
Tartar section of the village. There were no lights in the houses
and the doors were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to
happen and were in great fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but
got no response; whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a
carnage that continued until the last Tartar was slain. Throughout
the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my
ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud
shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished._
Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926).
_Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 109 (second paragraph).
_The method of execution was for an Armenian government 'mauserist'
to walk up behind the condemned Muslim in his home or on the street,
place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains.
This simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in
the view of the Armenian government and soon became a common way
of paying debts._
p. 202 (first and second paragraphs)
_We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead._
Leonard Ramsden Hartill, _Men Are Like That_ The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis.
_Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 203 (second paragraph)
_One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among
the ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils
and other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies
of the Muslim dead._
p. 204 (first paragraph)
_I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying
of a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to
make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the
tragedy that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered
the yard of a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been
the home of a Muslim family. There in a corner of the yard I found a
women dead. Her throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small
child, a girl about a year old._
_San Francisco Chronicle_ (December 11, 1983)
_We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian
atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family
witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum,
Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and
anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim...Armenians were in league
with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant themselves
government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate
Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic
acts in league with the Russian Communists._
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
"U.S. Library of Congress" _Bristol Papers_ - General
Correspondence Container #34.
_While the Dashnaks [x-Russian Armenian Government] were in
power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling
by attacking Kurds, Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages
against the Moslems; by massacring the Moslems; and robbing and
destroying their homes. During the last two years the Armenians
in Russian Caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves
and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under
their power._
_Bristol Papers_, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
_I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village._
F. Kazemzadeh, _The Struggle for Transcaucasia_ (New York, 1951),
p. 69.
_This three-day massacre by Armenians is recorded in history as
the 'March Events' and thousands of Muslims, old people, women
and children lost their lives._
W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, _Caucasian Battlefields_ Cambridge
University Press, 1953, p. 481.
_As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the
Tartars as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon
became a massacre of the Tartar population._
G. Bronsart, _Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung_ July 24, 1921
_Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the
Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by
the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians
were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army
paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the
Moslem folk in the region as well._
John Dewey, _The Turkish Tragedy_ The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
_Armenians boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and
fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned
at least a hundred Muslim villages and exterminated their
population._
G. Hamelin, _Les Armees Francaises au Levant_ February 2, 1919,
Vol. 1, p. 122.
_Armenians burned and destroyed many Muslim villages in their
advance and practically all Muslim villages in their retreat
from Marash._
Prof F. Hertas, _Van Muslim Holocaust Museum: Muslim and Western
Documents on the Genocide Committed by the Armenians
Against the Muslims_ 1984.
p. 121.
_In his speech given at the Sivas Congress, Mustafa Kemal once again
drew a picture of the country under occupation:
In the East, the Armenians are making preparations for advancing to
the River Halys (Kizilirmak), and have already started a policy of
massacring the Moslem population._
p. 122.
_The situation of the southern provinces of Turkey after the signing
of the Mudros Armistice is described by Ataturk in his speech:
The Armenians in the south, armed by foreign troops and encouraged
by the protection they enjoyed, molested the Mohammedans of their
district. They pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction
everywhere. The Armenians had completely destroyed an old Mohammedan
town like Maras by their artillery and machine-gun fire.
They killed thousands of innocent and defenceless Muslim women and
children. The Armenians were the instigators of the atrocities, which
were unique in history.
Threatened by the bayonets of the Armenians, who were armed to the teeth,
the Mohammedans in the Vilayet of Adana were at that time in danger of
being annihilated. While this policy of oppression and annihilation was
carried on against the Mohammedans by the Armenians..._
Basar, H. K. (ed.); _Muslim and Russian Documents on the Genocide
Committed by the Armenians Against the Muslims_
1981.
p. 22.
_The atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time
against the Muslim population within the Armenian Republic have been
confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by
Rawlinson, the British representative in Erzurum, have confirmed that
these atrocities are being committed by the Armenians. The United States
delegation of General Harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came
to take refuge with Kazim Karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable,
their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation
was a witness to the cruelties. Many Muslim villages have been destroyed
by the soldiers of Armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns
before the eyes of Karabekir's troops and the people. When it was hoped
that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of
February the cruelties inflicted on the Muslim population of the region
of Shuraghel, Akpazar, Zarshad, and Childir have increased. According
to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have been destroyed in the
aforementioned region, more than 60,000 people have been slaughtered,
many possessions and livestock have been seized, young Muslim women
have been taken to Kars and Gumru, thousands of women and children who
were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the
mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity
and honour of the Muslims continued. It was the responsibility of the
Armenian Government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order
to alleviate the tensions of Muslim public opinion due to the atrocities
committed by the Armenians, that the possessions taken from the Muslims
be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives,
and honour of the Muslims be protected._
Avetis Aharonian, _From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne_
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn,
Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.
p. 52 (second paragraph).
_Your three Armenian chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are
the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed Muslim villages
and have staged massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and
Zangibasar. This is intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a
file of official documents on the table - look at this, here in
December are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined
Muslim villages which my representative Wardrop has sent me. The
official Tartar communique speaks of the destruction of 300 villages
by the Armenians._
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
_Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Muslim is
stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military
leadership I hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition._
_It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
during the past months have raided and destroyed many Muslim villages
in the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar.
There are official charges of massacres by the Armenians._
Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, _Russian View on the Genocide Committed by
the Armenians Against the Muslims_ 1987,
pp. 45-53.
_The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and
the act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian Army. More
than eighty thousand unarmed and defenceless Muslims have been massacred
in Erzincan and Erzurum. Large holes were dug and the defenceless
Muslims were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
murdered Muslims were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood
near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
more Muslims would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.
The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
fill a house with eighty Muslims, and cut their heads off one by one.
Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
towards Erzurum... The Armenian Army among those who withdrew to
Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
destroyed the entire population, together with the villages._
A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934
(First published 1923) (287 pages).
_Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 184 (second paragraph)
_I had received further very definite information of horrors
that had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain,
and as I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by
their treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis
from Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should
not be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as,
their troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should with
justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'_
A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934
(First published 1923) (287 pages).
_Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 178 (first paragraph)
_In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been
searched for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken
under the cloak of such search, and not only had many Moslems
been killed by the Armenian Army, but horrible tortures had
been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to
where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were
aware of the existence, although they had been unable to find
them._
p. 177 (third paragraph)
_Armenian troops have pillaged and destroyed all the Moslem
villages in the plain. Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile
constantly arriving from the plain, from which the whole Moslem
population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as
they could transport, seeking to obtain security and protection._
A. Rawlinson, _Adventures in the Near East_
Jonathan Cape, 30 Bedford Square, London, 1934
(First published 1923) (287 pages).
_Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 175 (first paragraph)
_The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the
announcement that Kars Province had been allotted by the
Supreme Council of the Allies to the Armenians, and that
announcement having been made, the British troops were then
completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation commenced. Hence
all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced the wholesale
robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the pretext
that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they
were able to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which
this was done will be referred to in due course._
p. 181 (first paragraph)
_The Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish people
with artillery, with a large force in support._
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).
'The most of the Muslims slaughtered by the Armenians are
inside houses. Come you and look.'
'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
_We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space.
'I don't believe you,' I said, but followed to a nail-studded
door. The man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me
to check on the corpse. I thought I should, this charge was
so constant, so gritted my teeth and went inside.
The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark
at first, for its stone walls had only window slits. Rags
strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that
vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot. All
looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As
the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's
body lying face up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was
about fifty years old by what was left of his face - a rifle
butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted, as with Tartars
rather than with Kurds. Any uniform once on him was gone, so
I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at
the mess of his slashed genitals._
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 363 (first paragraph).
'How many Muslim people lived there?'
'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
'Did you see any Muslim officers?'
'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'
_The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a
voice woke me - Dro's [Armenian architect of the genocide
of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye]. He stood in the starlight
bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled so long and furiously
I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into laughter, quick
and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense of guilt,
I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
Christian Armenian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than
the reverse would have been.
From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.
The Armenian women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as
they picked over the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's
chattels, the last scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing
pots, saddlebags, looms, even spinning-wheels.
'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I
must leave.' We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.'
And for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching
plains. Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all,
doubtless in a sack of other Moslem villages by the Armenian Army up to
the line of snow that was Iran.'_
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 354.
_At morning tea, Dro [Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people - ye] and his officers spread out a map
of this whole high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics,
Armenians spoke Russian, but I got their contempt for Allied
'neutral' zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal
chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on Moslem villages._
p. 358.
"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on
three sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets,"
Merrimanov said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in
terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform
or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 360.
_The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds
of feet down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies
under that,' said Dro [Armenian architect of the genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people - ye], pointing. 'Our men also attack
Muslims from the other sides.'
Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge.
Bayonets clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black
haunches rippling; then followed the staff, the horde - nose
to tail, bellies taking the spur. Armenia in action seemed more
like a pageant than war, even though I heard our Utica brass roar.
As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear.
A tsing of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries;
cattle lowed, dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese
and drank from a snow puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men
shouted, at first heard faintly. Then came a shrill wailing.
Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered
about house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A
mosque stood in clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked
alleys on fire, horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted
and on foot.
'Tartarski!' shouted the Armenian gunner by me. Others pantomimed
them in escape over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose,
loaded, and yanked breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted,
I thought, when by afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or
Muslim body. But these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the
gullies drowned the women's cries.
At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down
toward Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was
steep and tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came
out suddenly, through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled
wheat my brothers-in-arms were leading off animals, several calves
and a lamb._
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 361 (fourth paragraph).
_Armenian corpses came next, the first a pretty Muslim child with
straight black hair, large eyes. She looked about twelve years old.
She lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack
she'd been toting. The bayonet had gone through her back, I judged,
for blood around was scant. Between the breasts one clot, too small
for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun dress.
The next was a Muslim boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and
knee-pants. He lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm
reached out to the pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its
dough. Steel had jabbed just below his neck, into the spine.
There were Muslim grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around.
Djul was empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's
[Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people - ye]
German-speaking colonel. He said all Muslims who had not escaped were
dead._
Robert Dunn, _World Alive, A Personal Story_
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York (1952).
_Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the
Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people_
p. 358.
_More stories of Armenian murdering Muslims when the czarist troops
fled north. My Armenian hosts told me of their duty here: to keep
tabs on brigands, Muslim troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian,
Red or Tartar - coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the
hell that would break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened,
the Muslim vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan.
Muslims under Christian rule? His lips smacked in irony under the
droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just Smyrna over again on
a bigger scale._
_The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population
of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to
the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks._
_Mikael Kaprilian_ 1919
Sahak Melkonian, _Preserving the Armenian Purity_ 1920
_In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish
soul. It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that
some of us create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe
the artificial life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity'
that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support
their heart beats in this alien land._
During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920,
the Armenians through a premeditated and systematic genocide,
tried to complete its centuries-old policy of annihilation against
the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering 2.5 million Muslims and
deporting the rest from their 1,000 year homeland.
The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian,
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche,
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many
others.
J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.
Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.
Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.
Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.
Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.
Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.
Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.
Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.
Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.
John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History,
University of Chicago.
John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.
Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.
Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.
Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.
Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.
Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.
Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.
Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.
Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).
Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.
Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.
James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.
_long list deleted_
_Newsweek_ (November 29, 1993, p. 50)
_Armenians occupy a quarter of Azerbaijan's territory, and
they've displaced almost a million Azerbaijani civilians.
Friends of Armenia's powerful lobby in Washington, including
the U.S. Government are suddenly a bit aghast. 'What we see
now is a systematic destruction of every village in their
way' says a senior state department official. It's vandalism._
_THE GUARDIAN_, 2 September 1993
NOWHERE TO HIDE FOR AZERI REFUGEES
Armenia is pushing a new wave of displaced people towards Iran.
Jonathan RUGMAN in Kanliq, south-west Azerbaijan, reports
On the main road south through Kubatli province, thousands of
men, women and children are packed into trucks at an Azeri
checkpoint waiting for permission to leave. Helicopters shuttle
in and out with the wounded, while a group of women sit wailing
at the roadside, tearing at their bloodstained faces with their
fingernails in a frenzy of grief.
A new exodus of refugees is under way towards Azerbaijan's
border with Iran as Armenia forces continue ignoring United
Nations demands that they stop their offensive.
This week the UNHCR began distributing 4,000 tents and 50,000
blankets to those displaced in the recent hostilities. The
organisation said about 250,000 Azeris have been displaced so
far this year and about 1 million since the massacre began in
1988.
[Photo:] A man carries his elderly mother in the capital Baku. The
UN says about 250,000 Azeris have been displaced this year.
[Map: Shows areas invaded by Armenians]
_Newsweek_ 16 March 1992
By Pascal Privat with Steve Le Vine in Moscow
THE FACE OF A MASSACRE
Azerbaijan was a charnel house again last week: a place
of mourning refugees and dozens of mangled corpses
dragged to a makeshift morgue behind the mosque. They
were ordinary Azerbaijani men, women and children of
Khojaly, a small village in war-torn Nagorno-Karabakh
overrun by Armenian forces on Feb. 25-26. Many were
killed at close range while trying to flee; some had
their faces mutilated, others were scalped. While the
victims' families mourned,
Photo: `We will never forgive the Armenians': Azeri woman
mourn a victim.
_The New York Times_, Tuesday, March 3, 1992
MASSACRE BY ARMENIANS
Agdam, Azerbaijan, March 2 (Reuters) - Fresh evidence emerged
today of a massacre of civilians by Armenian militants in
Nagorno-Karabakh, a predominantly Armenian enclave of Azerbaijan.
Scalping Reported
Azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region
by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their
heads blown off. They said shooting by Armenians has prevented them
from retrieving more bodies.
"Women and children have been scalped," said Assad Faradshev, an aide
to Nagorno-Karabakh's Azerbaijani Governor. "When we began to pick up
bodies, they began firing at us."
The Azerbaijani militia chief in Agdam, Rashid Mamedov, said: "The
bodies are lying there like flocks of sheep. Even the fascists did
nothing like this."
Truckloads of Bodies
Near Agdam on the outskirts of Nagorno-Karabakh, a Reuters photographer,
Frederique Lengaigne, said she had seen two trucks filled with Azerbaijani
bodies.
"In the first one I counted 35, and it looked as though there were as
many in the second," she said. "Some had their head cut off, and many
had been burned. They were all men, and a few had been wearing khaki
uniforms."
_The Sunday Times_ 1 March 1992
By Thomas Goltz, Agdam, Azerbaijan
ARMENIAN SOLDIERS MASSACRE HUNDREDS OF FLEEING FAMILIES
Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more
than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children. Hundreds, possibly
thousands, were missing and feared dead.
The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending
the women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified
refugees. The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's
when the real slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of three soldiers
to survive. 'The Armenians just shot and shot. And then they came in
and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives.'
'They were shooting, shooting, shooting,' echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way
through Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law
were massacred in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.
The survivors said 2000 others, some of whom had fled separately,
were still missing in the gruelling terrain; many could perish from
their wounds or the cold.
By late yesterday, 479 deaths had been registered at the morgue in
Agdam's morgue, and 29 bodies had been buried in the cemetery. Of
the seven corpses I saw awaiting burial, two were children and three
were women, one shot through the chest at point blank range.
Agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror. Doctors said they
had 140 patients who escaped slaughter, most with bullet injuries or
deep stab wounds.
Nor were they safe in Agdam. On friday night rockets fell on the city
which has a population of 150,000, destroying several buildings and
killing one person.
_The Times_ 2 March 1992
CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH
(ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING TO INVESTIGATE
THE MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS)
As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh
we saw the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been
shot down as they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew
over, shown to journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES
lying in various parts of the hills.
The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS
KILLING of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized
by Armenians last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded,
frozen to death or missing.
The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains and pick
up bodies at sites of the mass killings.
The civilian helicopter picked up four corpses, and it was during
this and a previous mission that an Azerbaijani cameraman filmed
the several dozen bodies on the hillsides.
Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look at the bodies the
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor
mortis. They had been shot.
_TIME_ March 16, 1992
By Jill SMOLOWE
-Reported by Yuri ZARAKHOVICH/Moscow
M A S S A C R E I N K H O J A L Y
While the details are argued, this much is plain: something grim
and unconscionable happened in the Azerbaijani town of Khojaly
two weeks ago. So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis, many of them
mutilated, have been transported out of the town tucked inside
the Armenian-dominated enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh for burial in
neighboring Azerbaijan. The total number of deaths - the Azerbaijanis
claim 1,324 civilians have been slaughtered, most of them women and
children - is unknown.
Videotapes circulated by the Azerbaijanis include images of defaced
civilians, some of them scalped, others shot in the head.
_BBC1 Morning News at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992_
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more
than 100 bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a
baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance.
_BBC1 Morning News at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992_
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses
who were picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman
and Western Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who
are men, women, children, massacred by Armenians. They have
been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 meter. Picture
also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children)
are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan claimed that more
than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.
_Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992_
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and
children in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from
their heads as close as less than 1 meter.
_Report from Karabakpress_
A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small
Azeri town of Khojali (Population 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan,
is reported to have taken place on the night of February 28 by
the Soviet Armenian Army. Close to 1000 people are reported to
have been massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many
were badly beaten and shot at close range. A sense of rage and
helplessness has overwhelmed the Azeri population in face of the
well armed and equipped Armenian Army. The neighboring Azeri city
of Aghdam outside of the Karabagh region has come under heavy
Armenian artillery shelling. City hospital was hit and two pregnant
women as well as a new born infant were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing
to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless
attacks on its population and its sovereignty.
_Boston Sunday Globe_ November 21, 1993
by Jon Auerbach
Globe Correspondent
CHAKHARLI, Azerbaijan -- The truckloads of scared and lost
children, the sobbing mothers, the stench of sickness and
the sea of blank faces in this mud-covered refugee camp
obscure the deeper issue of why tens of thousands of Azeris
have fled here.
_What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village
in their way,_ said one senior US official. _It's one of the
most disgusting things we've seen._
_It's vandalism,_ the US official said. _The idea that there
is an aggressive intent in a sound conclusion._
The United Nations estimates that there are more than 1 million
refugees in Azerbaijan, roughly one seventh of the former Soviet
republic's entire population. Thousands who fled to neighboring
Iran are being slowly repatriated to refugee camps already bursting
at the seams. But because of the Karabakh Armenians' policy of
burning villages, relief organizations say there is no hope that
the Azeris could return home anytime soon.
At Chakharli, about 10 miles from Iran, more than 10,000 refugees
are crammed into a makeshift tent city. Aziz Azizova, 33, arrived
in the Iranian run camp about three weeks ago, after she and her
five children were forced to flee their home in the village of
Buik-Merjan.
_I left my village with nothing, not even my shoes,_ she said. _You
see how our children are living? Some of them are living right in
the mud._
Azizova, like thousands of others, escaped by fleeing across the Arax
River into neighboring Iran. The UN estimates that around 300 Azeris,
mainly women and children, drowned in the river's currents.
One of the people who did make it across was Samaz Mamedova, a
40-year-old accountant. Sitting with friends in tent No. 566 on
a recent day, Mamedova explained how the Armenians seized her
village in less than a half hour, forcing the entire population
toward the river in a chaotic scramble for survival.
_Cebbar Leygara_ Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992
_Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbians against Croatians
and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's
against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really
no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by
the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish
Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands._
_Tovfik Kasimov_ Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992
_The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination
of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag,
Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the
extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government
during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII._
_The Times_ 3 March 1992
MASSACRE UNCOVERED
By ANATOL LIEVEN
More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children,
have been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming
claims that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds
are missing.
Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley
and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's
massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.
In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another
31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures
do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed
the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also
do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies
Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200
people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came
by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and
of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies
we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents.
The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which
killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre.
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly
clothing of workers.
Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national
volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians,
including eight women and three small children. Two groups,
apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled
in the women's arms.
Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head
injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they
saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE ba98d810Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in the genocide of 2,500,000 moslems
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
I'm I the only one who is sick of Vulis' trash?
--
I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist
unicorn@schloss.li
NODE 48c61f05Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in the genocide of 2,500,000 moslems
snow <snow@smoke.suba.com>Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> I'm I the only one who is sick of Vulis' trash?
No.
Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com
NODE e7a5329bRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Vulis's role in the spamming of 2,500,000 , cypherpunks
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
>
> > Vulis, grow up.
> >
> > =============================================================================
> > + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
> > \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
> > <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
> > /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
> > + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
> > ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
> > If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
> > ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
>
> My friend and colleague, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited the following sources
> in reference to Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:
<48kb Spam message deleted.>
The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet
another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt
to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be
pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.
My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE a561b9e2Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> >
> > > Vulis, grow up.
> > >
> > > =========================================================================
> > > + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/
> > > \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\
> > > <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/
> > > /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\
> > > + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |===
> > > ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=====================
> > > If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
> > > ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
> >
> > My friend and colleague, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited the following sources
> > in reference to Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:
>
> <48kb Spam message deleted.>
>
> The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet
> another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt
> to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be
> pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.
Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes mistakes in English.
> My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.
>
> =============================================================================
> + ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
> \|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
> <--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
> /|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
> + v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
> ===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
> If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
> ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
>
My good friend and colleage, Dr. Serdar Argic, has cited these additional
sources regarding Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:
M A S S A C R E I N K H O J A L Y
While the details are argued, this much is plain: something grim
and unconscionable happened in the Azerbaijani town of Khojaly
two weeks ago. So far, some 200 dead Azerbaijanis, many of them
mutilated, have been transported out of the town tucked inside
the Armenian-dominated enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh for burial in
neighboring Azerbaijan. The total number of deaths - the Azerbaijanis
claim 1,324 civilians have been slaughtered, most of them women and
children - is unknown.
Videotapes circulated by the Azerbaijanis include images of defaced
civilians, some of them scalped, others shot in the head.
_BBC1 Morning News at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992_
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more
than 100 bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a
baby who are shot dead from their heads from a very short distance.
_BBC1 Morning News at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992_
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses
who were picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman
and Western Journalists have seen more than 100 corpses, who
are men, women, children, massacred by Armenians. They have
been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 meter. Picture
also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children)
are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan claimed that more
than 1000 civilians massacred by Armenian forces.
_Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992_
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and
children in civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from
their heads as close as less than 1 meter.
_Report from Karabakpress_
A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small
Azeri town of Khojali (Population 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan,
is reported to have taken place on the night of February 28 by
the Soviet Armenian Army. Close to 1000 people are reported to
have been massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many
were badly beaten and shot at close range. A sense of rage and
helplessness has overwhelmed the Azeri population in face of the
well armed and equipped Armenian Army. The neighboring Azeri city
of Aghdam outside of the Karabagh region has come under heavy
Armenian artillery shelling. City hospital was hit and two pregnant
women as well as a new born infant were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing
to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless
attacks on its population and its sovereignty.
_Boston Sunday Globe_ November 21, 1993
by Jon Auerbach
Globe Correspondent
CHAKHARLI, Azerbaijan -- The truckloads of scared and lost
children, the sobbing mothers, the stench of sickness and
the sea of blank faces in this mud-covered refugee camp
obscure the deeper issue of why tens of thousands of Azeris
have fled here.
_What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village
in their way,_ said one senior US official. _It's one of the
most disgusting things we've seen._
_It's vandalism,_ the US official said. _The idea that there
is an aggressive intent in a sound conclusion._
The United Nations estimates that there are more than 1 million
refugees in Azerbaijan, roughly one seventh of the former Soviet
republic's entire population. Thousands who fled to neighboring
Iran are being slowly repatriated to refugee camps already bursting
at the seams. But because of the Karabakh Armenians' policy of
burning villages, relief organizations say there is no hope that
the Azeris could return home anytime soon.
At Chakharli, about 10 miles from Iran, more than 10,000 refugees
are crammed into a makeshift tent city. Aziz Azizova, 33, arrived
in the Iranian run camp about three weeks ago, after she and her
five children were forced to flee their home in the village of
Buik-Merjan.
_I left my village with nothing, not even my shoes,_ she said. _You
see how our children are living? Some of them are living right in
the mud._
Azizova, like thousands of others, escaped by fleeing across the Arax
River into neighboring Iran. The UN estimates that around 300 Azeris,
mainly women and children, drowned in the river's currents.
One of the people who did make it across was Samaz Mamedova, a
40-year-old accountant. Sitting with friends in tent No. 566 on
a recent day, Mamedova explained how the Armenians seized her
village in less than a half hour, forcing the entire population
toward the river in a chaotic scramble for survival.
_Cebbar Leygara_ Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992
_Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbians against Croatians
and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic of Armenia's
against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan, are really
no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by
the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the Turkish and Kurdish
Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these lands._
_Tovfik Kasimov_ Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992
_The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination
of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag,
Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the
extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government
during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII._
_The Times_ 3 March 1992
MASSACRE UNCOVERED
By ANATOL LIEVEN
More than sixty bodies, including those of women and children,
have been spotted on hillsides in Nagorno-Karabakh, confirming
claims that Armenian troops massacred Azeri refugees. Hundreds
are missing.
Scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley
and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last Wednesday's
massacre by Armenian forces of Azerbaijani refugees.
In all, 31 bodies could be counted at the scene. At least another
31 have been taken into Agdam over the past five days. These figures
do not include civilians reported killed when the Armenians stormed
the Azerbaijani town of Khodjaly on Tuesday night. The figures also
do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies
Zahid Jabarov, a survivor of the massacre, said he saw up to 200
people shot down at the point we visited, and refugees who came
by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and
of leaving a trail of bodies along their path. Around the bodies
we saw were scattered possessions, clothing and personnel documents.
The bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which
killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre.
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly
clothing of workers.
Of the 31 we saw, only one policeman and two apparent national
volunteers were wearing uniform. All the rest were civilians,
including eight women and three small children. Two groups,
apparently families, had fallen together, the children cradled
in the women's arms.
Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head
injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they
saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground.
THE COMMITTEE FOR PEOPLE'S HELP TO KARABAKH (OF THE) ACADEMY OF
SCIENCES OF THE AZERBAIJAN SSR - 1988
An Appeal to Mankind
During the last three years Azerbaijan and its multinational
population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of
the Soviet Union. All humanitarian, constitutional human rights
guaranteed by the UN Charter, Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, Helsinki Agreements, Human Problems International Forums,
documents signed by the Soviet Union - all of them are violated.
The USSR's President, government bodies do not defend Azerbaijan
though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to
guarantee life and peace.
The 240,000 strong army of Armenian terrorists with Moscow's
tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against
Azerbaijan. As a result, a part of Azerbaijan has been occupied
and annexed, thousands of people killed, thousands wounded.
Some 400,000 Azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly
deported from the Armenian SSR, their historical homeland.
Together with them 64,000 Russians and 62,000 Kurds have also
been driven out, a part of them now settled in Azerbaijan.
Some 80,000 Turkish-Meskhetians, Lezghins and representatives
of other Caucasian nationalities who escaped from the Central
Asia where the President and government bodies did not guarantee
them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations.
One of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against
Azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the
Armenian extremists' destruction of the Karabakh scientific
experimental base of The Institute of Genetics and Selection
of the Academy of Sciences of the Azerbaijan SSR.
We beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance,
for the honour and dignity of 7 million Azerbaijanis are
violated, its territory, culture and history are trampled,
its people are shot. There is persistent negative image of
Azerbaijanians abroad, and this defamation is spread over
the whole world by Soviet mass media, Armenian lobby in the
USSR and the United States.
We are for a united, indivisible, sovereign Azerbaijan, we
are for a common Caucasian home proclaimed in 1918 by one
of the founding fathers of the Azerbaijan Democratic
Republic - Muhammed Emin Rasulzade.
But all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the
Soviet leadership in favour of the Armenian expansionists
encouraged by Moscow and intended to create a new '1,000
Year Reich' - the 'Great Armenia' - by annexing the
neighboring lands.
The world public opinion shed tears to save the whales,
suffers for penguins dying out in the Antarctic Continent.
But what about the lives of seven million human beings?
If these people are Muslims, does it mean that they are
less valuable? Can people be discriminated by their
colour of skin or religion, by their residence or other
attributes?
All people are brothers, and we appeal to our brothers
for help and understanding. This is not the first appeal
of Azerbaijan to the world public opinion. Our previous
appeals were unheard. However, we still carry the hope
that the truth beyond the Russian and Armenian propaganda
will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and
stimulate at least as much help and compassion for
Azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins.
_The Age_ Melbourne, 6/3/92
By Helen WOMACK - Agdam, Azerbaijan, Thursday
The exact number of victims is still unclear, but there can
be little doubt that Azeri civilians were massacred by Armenian
Army in the snowy mountains of Nagorno-Karabakh last week.
Refugees from the enclave town of Khojaly, sheltering in the
Azeri border town of Agdam, give largely consistent accounts
of how Armenians attacked their homes on the night of 25 February,
chased those who fled and shot them in the surrounding forests.
Yesterday, I saw 75 freshly dug graves in one cemetery in addition
to four mutilated corpses we were shown in the mosque when we
arrived in Agdam late on Tuesday. I also saw women and children
with bullet wounds in a makeshift hospital in a string of railway
carriages.
Khojaly, an Azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by
Armenians, had a population of about 6000. Mr. Rashid Mamedov
Commander of Police in Agdam, said only about 500 escaped to his
town. _So where are the rest?_. Some might have taken prisoner,
he said, or fled. Many bodies were still lying in the mountains
because the Azeris were short of helicopters to retrieve them.
He believed more than 1000 had perished, some of cold in temperatures
as low as minus 10 degrees.
When Azeris saw the Armenians with a convoy of armored personnel
carriers, they realised they could not hope to defend themselves,
and fled into the forests. In the small hours, the massacre started.
Mr. Nasiru, who believes his wife and two children were taken
prisoner, repeated what many other refugees have said - that
troops of the former Soviet army helped the Armenians to attack
Khojaly. _It is not my opinion, I saw it with my own eyes._
_The Washington Post_ 2/28/92
_Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town_
"Refugees claim hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies
seen here today, two were children and three were women, one shot
through the chest at what appeared to be close range. Another 120
refugees being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple
stab wounds."
_The New York Times_ 3/6/92
_A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan_
[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan,
family members and friends grieved during the burial of victims
massacred by the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov,
right, hugged the coffin containing the remains of his brother, one
of the victims. A copy of Koran lay atop the coffin."
_The Washington Post_ 3/6/92
_Final Embrace_
[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed
by Armenians in Nagorno-Karabagh."
_The Washington Times_ 3/2/92
_Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing_
"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were massacred by the
Armenian Army in Tuesdays attack. Azerbaijani television showed
truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the Khocaly area."
_The Independent_ 2/29/92
By Helen Womack
"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after
a massacre on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who
died when Armenians overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest
Azeri settlement in the area. 'The world is turning its back on
what's happening here. We are dying and you are just watching,'
one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
_Reuters_ 2/12/92
_Armenians Burn Azeri Village_
"Armenian Army attacked a strategic Azeri village...in Nagorno-Karabagh
and burned it to the ground on Tuesday, Commonwealth television reported.
Channel one television said the village of Malybeili, in the Khodzhalin
district, was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded.
Itar-Tass news agency said several people were killed and 20 wounded in
the attack on the village... Tass also said shells fired from Armenian
villages into the Azeri populated town of Susha, just 6 miles south of
Stepenakert, demolished two houses and damaged five others."
_The Washington Times_ 3/3/92
_Massacre Reports Horrify Azerbaijan_
"Azeri officials who returned from the scene to this town about
nine miles away brought back three dead children, the backs of
their heads blown off...'Women and children had been scalped,'
said Assad Faradzev, an aide to Karabagh's Azeri governor. Azeri
television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to
the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their faces apparently scratched
with knives or their eyes gouged out."
_The Washington Post_ 3/3/92
_Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh_
"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including
some of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began
shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
_The Times (London)_ 3/3/92
_Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre_
"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect
their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest.
All are the bodies of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly
clorhing of workers...All the rest were civilians, including eight
women and three small children. Two groups, apparently families,
had fallen together, the children cradled in the women's arms.
Several of them, including one small girl, had terrible head
injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they
saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
_The SUNDAY TIMES_ 8 March 1992
Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers,
reports from Agdam.
Khojaly used to be a barren Azeri town, with empty shops and treeless
dirt roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of Azeri people who, in
happier times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped
off the map.
As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
apart.
I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
her family were among the victims of the massacre by the Armenians on
February 26.
"The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
the massacre, as were many other people I had spoken to.
"It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
just entered their trap."
The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
the gullies. A video taken by an Azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
from the Armenians.
"The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and daughter
fall right by me."
People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my daughter,
where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
_The Independent_ London, 12/6/92
_Painful Search_
The gruesome extent of February's killings of Azeris by Armenians
in the town of Hojali is at last emerging in Azerbaijan - about
600 men, women and children dead.
The State Prosecutor, Aydin Rasulov, the cheif investigator of a
15-man team looking into what Azerbaijan calls the "Hojali
Massacre", said his figure of 600 people dead was a minimum on
preliminary findings. A similar estimate was given by Elman
Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali. An even higher one was printed in
the Baku newspaper Ordu in May - 479 dead people named and more
than 200 bodies reported unidentified. This figure of nearly 700
dead is quoted as official by Leila Yunusova, the new spokeswoman
of the Azeri Ministry of Defence.
FranCois Zen Ruffinen, head of delegation of the International
Red Cross in Baku, said the Muslim imam of the nearby city of
Agdam had reported a figure of 580 bodies received at his mosque
from Hojali, most of them civilians. "We did not count the
bodies. But the figure seems reasonable. It is no fantasy," Mr
Zen Ruffinen said. "We have some idea since we gave the body bags
and products to wash the dead."
Mr Rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the
number of dead in the massacre. "Don't get worked up. It will
take several months to get a final figure," the 43-year-old
lawyer said at his small office.
Mr Rasulov knows about these things. It took him two years to
reach a firm conclusion that 131 people were killed and 714
wounded when Soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist
uprising in Baku in January 1990.
Officially, 184 people have so far been certified as dead, being
the number of people that could be medically examined by the
republic's forensic department. "This is just a small percentage
of the dead," said Rafiq Youssifov, the republic's chief forensic
scientist. "They were the only bodies brought to us. Remember the
chaos and the fact that we are Muslims and have to wash and bury
our dead within 24 hours."
Of these 184 people, 51 were women, and 13 were children under 14
years old. Gunshots killed 151 people, shrapnel killed 20 and
axes or blunt instruments killed 10. Exposure in the highland
snows killed the last three. Thirty-three people showed signs of
deliberate mutilation, including ears, noses, breasts or penises
cut off and eyes gouged out, according to Professor Youssifov's
report. Those 184 bodies examined were less than a third of those
believed to have been killed, Mr Rasulov said.
"There were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to
count properly: 470-500 in Hojali, 650-700 people by the stream
and the road and 85-100 visible around Nakhchivanik village," Mr
Manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter
pilot.
"People waved up to us for help. We saw three dead children and
one two-year-old alive by one dead woman. The live one was
pulling at her arm for the mother to get up. We tried to land but
Armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to
return."
There has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in
circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few
months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in Hojali
at the time - many inhabitants were displaced from other villages
taken over by Armenian forces.
_The Independent_ London, 12/6/92
Photographs: Liu Heung / AP
Frederique Lengaigne / Reuter
Aref Sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe-bar on the
Caspian Sea esplanade of Baku and showed a line of stitches in
his trousers, torn by an Armenian bullet as he fled the town of
Hojali just over three months ago, writes Hugh Pope.
"I'm still wearing the same clothes, I don't have any others,"
the 51-year-old carpenter said, beginning his account of the
Hojali disaster. "I was wounded in five places, but I am lucky to
be alive."
Mr Sadikov and his wife were short of food, without electricity
for more than a month, and cut off from helicopter flights for 12
days. They sensed the Armenian noose was tightening around the
2,000 to 3,000 people left in the straggling Azeri town on the
edge of Karabakh.
"At about 11pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard
before, eight or nine kinds of weapons, artillery, heavy
machine-guns, the lot," Mr Sadikov said.
Soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction
of the attack. Some huddled in shelters but others started
fleeing the town, down a hill, through a stream and through the
snow into a forest on the other side.
To escape, the townspeople had to reach the Azeri town of Agdam
about 15 miles away. They thought they were going to make it,
until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two
Azeri villages of Nakhchivanik and Saderak.
"None of my group was hurt up to then ... Then we were spotted by
a car on the road, and the Armenian outposts started opening
fire," Mr Sadikov said. Mr Sadikov said only 10 people from his
group of 80 made it through, including his wife and militiaman
son. Seven of his immediate relations died, including his
67-year-old elder brother.
"I only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat,"
he said, pulling his own big flat Turkish cap over his eyes. "We
have never got any of the bodies back."
The first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire.
One hero of the evacuation, Alif Hajief, was shot dead as he
struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group's
crossing, Mr Sadikov said.
Another hero, Elman Memmedov, the mayor of Hojali, said he and
several others spent the whole day of 26 February in the bushy
hillside, surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three
Armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay.
As the survivors staggered the last mile into Agdam, there was
little comfort in a town from which most of the population was
soon to flee.
"The night after we reached the town there was a big Armenian
rocket attack. Some people just kept going," Mr Sadikov said. "I
had to get to the hospital for treatment. I was in a bad way.
They even found a bullet in my sock."
Victims of massacre: An Azeri woman mourns her son, killed in the
Hojali massacre in February (left). Nurses struggle in primitive
conditions (centre) to save a wounded man in a makeshift
operating theatre set up in a train carriage. Grief-stricken
relatives in the town of Agdam (right) weep over the coffin of
another of the massacre victims. Calculating the final death toll
has been complicated because Muslims bury their dead within 24
hours.
Amnesty International
International Secretariat
1 Easton Street
London WC1X 8DJ
United Kingdom
22 APRIL 1994
ARMENIA - MUSLIM PRISONERS MURDERED IN "EXECUTION-TYPE SHOOTINGS"
Forensic evidence released this month suggests that six Azerbaydzhani
prisoners of war held in Armenia were victims of "execution-type
shootings", according to a forensic expert.
Following an announcement, in February, by the Armenian Foreign
Ministry that eight Azerbaydzhani prisoners had been shot while
attempting to escape, ten bodies were transferred from Armenia
to Azerbaydzhan in March. Professor Derrick Pounder, head of the
Department of Forensic Medicine at the University of Dundee,
United Kingdom, began post- mortem examinations on the bodies
at the beginning of April. The bodies had also undergone previous
examinations by both the Armenians and the Azeris.
He found that six of the men - Rustam Ramazan ogly Agev, Elehan Guseyn
ogly Akhmedov, Elman Mamed ogly Akhmedov, Kurchat Kiyaz ogly Mamedov,
Eldar Chakhbaba ogly Mamedov and Faig Gabil ogly Guliyev - had been
murdered by a single gunshot wound to the head. He also found that
in three of the six cases the muzzle of the gun had been in contact
with the head at the time the shot was fired. It was not possible
to determine the range at which the shot had been fired in the other
three cases owing to earlier removal of physical evidence.
Professor Pounder concluded that the pattern of gunshot wounds was
not consistent with allegations that the six men had been shot while
attempting to escape, and said that the common pattern of the wounds
was "strongly suggestive of execution-type shootings".
Amnesty International is urging the Armenian authorities to conduct
a prompt, impartial and thorough investigation into the deaths of
these six men, to make the findings public, and to bring to justice
any perpetrators of execution-style killings, within the bounds of
international law.
The human rights organization is also urging the Armenian authorities
to investigate the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the remaining
four men whose bodies were returned, in order to determine if criminal
proceedings are necessary in their cases also.
Professor Pounder found that one of these had wounds to the throat in
a pattern of injury consistent with suicide, one died of a single gunshot
wound to the chest, and in two instances the cause of death could not
be determined.
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH HELSINKI
Formerly
485 FIFTH AVENUE,NEW YORK,NY 10017-6104, TEL(212)972-8400,FAX(212)
972-0905,EMAIL;hrwatchnycigc.apc.org.
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FAX(202)371-0124,EMAIL,hrwatchdc igc apc.org
90 BOROUGH HIGH STREET,LONDON UK SE1 ILL,TEL(71)378-8008,FAX (71)
378-8029,EMAIL:hrwatchuk gn apc org
MOSCOW, RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TEL and FAX(7095)265-4448
MARCH 2, 1994
PRESIDENT LEVON TER-PETROSSIAN
MARSHAL BAGRAMIAN PROSPECT,26
375019 YEREVAN
BY FAX:52-15-81
DEAR PRESIDENT TER-PETROSSIAN,
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH\HELSINKI (Formerly Helsinki Watch) is the
largest human rights organisation in the United States. We have
closely followed the Armenian massacre of the Azeri people in
Nagorno Karabakh, and have published two reports on violations
of the Geneva Conventions.
I am writing you to express our organisation's deep concern
about the deaths of Azerbaijani prisoners of war in Armenia.
According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the
following men were shot to death in an Armenian detention camp
in Sritak in late January or early February:
Rustam Ramazan-oglu Agaev,(birthdate unknown), from Masalin
District
Elman Mamed-oglu Akhmedov,b. 1961,from Yevlakh District
Elshan Hussein-oglu Akhmedov,b.1974, from Saatlin District
Bakhram AKIF-oglu Giiasov,b. 1972,from Siazan
FAIG Gabil-oglu Guliev,b.1969,from Baku
Enver Asker-oglu Jafarov,b.1972,from Sumgait
Eldar Shahbaba-oglu Mamedov,b.1966,from Baku
Girshad Kniaz-oglu Mamedov,b.1974 from Yevlakh
I thank you for your attention to this matter and look forward
to learning the results of the investigation.
Yours sincerely,
Jeri Laber
Executive Director
_Newsweek_ November 29, 1993, p. 50
_For the past seven months Armenian troops and tanks have swept
across Azerbaijan -- a land grab exceeded only by what the Serbs
have accomplished in Bosnia in the past year...Last month they
pushed south all the way to the Iranian border, driving more
than 60,000 Azerbaijani civilians across the Araks river into
Iran -- and looting and torching vacant villages in their wake._
Christopher Walker, _Armenia_ New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.
This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust:
1) Dro (the Butcher), the former dictator of ex-Russian/Soviet Armenia
and the architect of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslims in
Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, the most respected of Nazi Armenian
leaders, established an Armenian Provisional Republic in Berlin during
World War II;
2) this _provisional government_ fully endorsed and espoused the social
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members
of the Aryan _Super-Race_;
3) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning
themselves with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews;
and,
4) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 30,000 members which fought
side by side with the Wehrmacht.
_San Francisco Chronicle_ (December 11, 1983)
(Editor's Mailbox - Section B)
_We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian
atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family
witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum,
Turkey, by Armenian neighbors, bent on destroying anything and
anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim...Armenians were in league
with Hitler in the last war, on his premise to grant themselves
government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate
Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic
acts in league with the Russian Communists._
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
The Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik (an official mouthpiece
for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government), carried statements as follows:[*]
_Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements [the
Jews] when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when
it becomes necessary for a people [the Nazis] to eradicate them in an
uncommon method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During
the surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing._[**]
[*] James G. Mandalian, _Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,_ in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
[**] Quoted by James Mandalian: _Who Are The Dashnags?_ Boston,
Hairenik Press, 1944, pp. 13-4.
_These European Armenians, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed
to, and bargained with Hitler's emissaries for an 'independent'
Armenian state. That they had to bootlick Nazi masters goes without
saying. That, as potential officials of a puppet Nazi state, they
would have assumed the infamous roles of the Paveliches, Antonescus,
Lavals, Tisos or Vidkun Quislings was also a foregone conclusion.
Once committed to it, there was no alternative to the price for
'independence' except subservience to Hitler._[*]
[*] Arthur Derounian under the pseudonym 'John Roy Carlson,'
_Armenian Affairs_ a Quarterly Journal of Armenian Studies,
Winter 1949-50, p. 18.
'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
(Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum)
_The Muslim Holocaust - Musluman Soykirimi_ p. 213.
_Thursday, August 2, 1984 issue of 'Armenian Reporter'_
In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast
network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents.
Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in
Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were also involved in espionage and
fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula.
They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in
an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of
this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1,
1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians
were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed
pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war.
In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the
Nazi concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the
first Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this
battalion had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the
command of Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet/
Russian Armenia and the architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council
was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was
recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by this, the Armenians summarily
formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the
principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the members of the
Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of extermination
of the Jews.
This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an
"encore" performance staged by the Armenians during WWI when they
exterminated 2.5 million Muslim and Jewish people.
As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian asserted in _Patriotism Perverted_ that
the Armenians
_lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism._[1]
At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million
Muslim and Jewish people in Eastern Anatolia and Russian Armenia.
However, extreme rightwing ideological tendencies could be observed
within the Soviet Armenian Government long before the outbreak of the
Second World War.
In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the _Tzeghagrons_ was quoted
in the _Hairenik Weekly_ (an official mouthpiece for the ex-Soviet
Armenian Government):
_The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall
see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
bereft of social sanctities._[2]
[1] K. S. Papazian, _Patriotism Perverted_ (Boston, Baikar Press
1934), Preface.
[2] _Hairenik Weekly_ Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.
The Armenian fascism traditionally employed extreme means for the
sake of Armenian cause, including massacres and genocide. In World
War I, Russian Armenian Government annihilated the entire Muslim
population of Russian Armenia and exterminated millions of Muslim
and Sephardic Jews in Eastern Anatolia. While having collaborated
with the Nazis against Stalin during the Second World War, Nazi
Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's defeat. They now
backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces, hoping that
these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim population
would be exterminated again. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and
America for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the
Turkish government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.
[1] Walter Kolarz, _Religion in the Soviet Union_ (London, Macmillan &
Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.
Nazi Germany had shown interest in nationalities, as a tool to
dismember the Russian empire, back in World War I. In the time
between the two World Wars, expelled leaders of Soviet nationalities
were lobbying the capitals of European powers to gain support for
their respective causes. Already in 1936, the SS Headquarters
(Reichssicherheitshauptamt) had created bureaus (Vertrauensstellen)
to contact emigrants and oversee their activities. The Vertrauensstellen
for the Caucasus was led by the Armenian Deirajr Froundjian and the
Georgian Lado Achmeteli.[1]
Shortly after the occupation of Warsaw and Paris, the German Abwehr
(Secret Service) assumed ties with exiled leaders of diverse Soviet
nationalities, among them Russian Armenian Government officials.[2]
One of the leaders of the ex-Soviet Armenian Government, the aforementioned
General Dro (the butcher), who was the chief architect of the Armenian
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people in Russian Armenia and Eastern
Anatolia between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed
by the notorious (Drastamat Kanajan) began working relationship with
the Nazis around that time.
[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), _Zwischen Hakenkreuz und
Sowjetstern_ (Droste Verlag Duesseldorf 1971), p. 37.
[2] Ibid., p. 84.
In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the
Caucasus. A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting
plans to German officials in spring and summer 1942. One of
them was Souren Begzadian Paikhar, son of a former ambassador
of the Armenian Republic in Baku. Paikhar wrote a letter to
Hitler, asking for German support to his Armenian national
socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the creation of an
Armenian SS formation in order
_to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the
spirit of the Nazi ideas._
He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Muslim
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]
[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.
A genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people
in an attempt to exterminate a race. This is the worst crime
in history. It happened to the Muslims in Russian Armenia and
Eastern Anatolia. 2.5 million Muslims were killed by Armenians
in the worst ways imaginable. It is sickening to think that
the human race is capable of such actions, but there is no
denying the fact that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million
Muslims happened.
Furthermore, the establishment of Armenian units in the German
army was favored by General Dro (the Butcher), the architect
of the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people. He played
an important role in the establishment of the Nzi Armenian _legions_
without assuming any official position. His views were represented
by his men in the respective organs. An interesting meeting took
place between Dro and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the
end of 1942. Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler
and after a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp
close to Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1]
A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
_Aryans_ but _subhumans_ according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.
Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in various units in
the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian. 14,000
in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army
units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the
Waffen-SS.[1]
A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France and
Greece who had chosen to commit themselves to the extermination
of the European Jewry. Derounian says that
_Nazi Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion Armenienne.'_[2]
That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher', Armenian architect
of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, and Nezhdeh sided
with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of
Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.
[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.
[2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 19.
In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served
the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time,
is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian
officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag
colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._
[1] Joachim Hoffmann, _Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren,
Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer_ (Verlag Rombach
Freiburg 1976), p. 172.
The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in
the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively
recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of
twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian
Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in
Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi
Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one
of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4]
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137.
[2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167,
pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle,
see _Documents 3 and 4._
[3] Georg Tessin, _Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und
Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,_ (Frankfurt am Main
1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS.
[4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119.
Derounian says that
_Greece was honeycombed with Armenians serving as Nazi spies._[1]
Many Nazi Armenians were arrested by the British and sentenced by
the Greek government as collaborators in espionage.[2] In Rumania
many Nazi Armenians were found in Antonescu's Iron Guard during
arrest of members after the war. Bulgaria was the operational base
of Tzeghagrons-founder Garagin Nezhdeh, who commanded a network of
espionage from there.
[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 20.
[2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150.
In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Muslim
Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, was
working closely with the German Secret Service. He entered the war
zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the
Soviets. His experience with the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian
Armenia and Eastern Anatolia made him an invaluable source for the
Germans.[1]
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen,
ibid., p. 84.
Numerous articles in major newspapers (London Times) and periodicals
(Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant
collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves
credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively.
Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions
gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet
another dark chapter of Armenian history. Concurrently, Derounian embarked
on what one would call _crisis control_ or face-saving. In order to
forestall any potential attacks on the larger Armenian community in
the United States, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but
insignificant.[1]
[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _The Plotters_
E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.
Also, it is not surprising that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis.
_Wholly opportunistic the Armenians have been variously pro-Nazi,
pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as
anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever
was expedient._[1]
[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), _Cairo to Damascus_
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438.
NODE 2eb8d453Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
mianigand@outlook.net (Michael Peponis)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT)
:> > > Vulis, grow up.
That about sums it up.
It's one thing to endlessly insult Tim May. I can just ignore those.
It's another thing to send huge files full of irrevelent bable about
genocide in some third world country that I have to wait till it
downloads before I can make the determination that it's pure garbage.
(No, I don't killfile people on this list, maybe I should start)
Sandy made you a fair offer, if you are out to prove that Tim May is
an <insert insult here> and you are the divine being of cryptology,
then show up to one of the meetings and prove yourself in person,
or atleast insult Tim to his face.
Regards,
Michael Peponis
PGP Encyrpted mail prefered for business corespondence
finger mianigand@outlook.net for public key
NODE c37a2ed3Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
mianigand@outlook.net (Michael Peponis) writes:
> Sandy made you a fair offer, if you are out to prove that Tim May is
> an <insert insult here> and you are the divine being of cryptology,
Correction: I don't claim to be the divine being of cryptology.
> then show up to one of the meetings and prove yourself in person,
> or atleast insult Tim to his face.
I think to talk about cryptography to the San Francisco Gay and Lesbian
Cypherpunks is to throw beads before the swine.
Timmy May is an ignorant liar.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE a5bc10eaRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
C'punks,
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> I think to talk about cryptography to the San Francisco Gay and
> Lesbian Cypherpunks is to throw beads before the swine.
Dimitri, the expression is to cast pearls before swine. If
you wish to be rude and insulting, at least try to avoid looking
like an ignorant Cossack. If you actually feel this way about
the Bay area Cypherpunks, why have you given a provisional Yes
to your visit? Smells of intellectual dishonest and cowardice
to me.
S a n d y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NODE 7fac809cRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> > I think to talk about cryptography to the San Francisco Gay and
> > Lesbian Cypherpunks is to throw beads before the swine.
>
> Dimitri, the expression is to cast pearls before swine. If
> you wish to be rude and insulting, at least try to avoid looking
> like an ignorant Cossack. If you actually feel this way about
> the Bay area Cypherpunks, why have you given a provisional Yes
> to your visit? Smells of intellectual dishonest and cowardice
> to me.
You have to beg. You have to grovel. You have to prove yourselves
worthy of the honor.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 70c88873Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
C'punks,
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> You have to beg. You have to grovel. You have to prove yourselves
> worthy of the honor.
So it IS intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. I thought so.
Is there anyone on the list who thinks Dimitri is a man?
S a n d y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NODE 4d96112dRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> > You have to beg. You have to grovel. You have to prove yourselves
> > worthy of the honor.
>
> So it IS intellectual dishonesty and cowardice. I thought so.
Tsk tsk. You're not begging. You're not groveling. How do you plan
to convince me that you're worthy?
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 604630daRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>Tue, 22 Oct 1996 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
C'punks,
On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Tsk tsk. You're not begging. You're not groveling. How do you plan
> to convince me that you're worthy?
I have no such plan because I feel nothing but moral, cultural,
social and intellectual superiority to Dimitri. I invited him to
California out of curiosity. I studied slime mold in biology
class for the same reason. He has been made a generous offer.
It still stands. It's his decision to be either a man our a
mouse (or a slime mold). If he grows some gonads, I'll be very
surprised but pleased. In the meantime, I expect he will keep up
his cowardly, shoot-from-ambush attacks. No matter, we've all
seen worse.
S a n d y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NODE b33dd1a9Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> > Tsk tsk. You're not begging. You're not groveling. How do you plan
> > to convince me that you're worthy?
>
> I have no such plan because I feel nothing but moral, cultural,
> social and intellectual superiority to Dimitri. I invited him to
> California out of curiosity. I studied slime mold in biology
> class for the same reason. He has been made a generous offer.
> It still stands. It's his decision to be either a man our a
> mouse (or a slime mold). If he grows some gonads, I'll be very
> surprised but pleased. In the meantime, I expect he will keep up
> his cowardly, shoot-from-ambush attacks. No matter, we've all
> seen worse.
You yourself doubt that you are worthy.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 4c29d314Re: [SERDAR ARGIC]Vulis role in the spamming of 2,500,000 Cypherpunks
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:35:49 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet
> > another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt
> > to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be
> > pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.
>
> Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes
> mistakes in English.
And both your points are totally irrelevant, if not outright wrong.
> > My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.
<51Kb spam message deleted.>
Vulis, this is your 2nd spam to this list which is totally unrelated to
any cypherpunk issues. As this is totally off topic, flame mail, and
spam, I suggest you grow up. Again my original message to you stand:
grow up.
2nd, since you are bent on sending your flames to this list, I move to
vote you off the list.
Have a nice day.
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@brainlink.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
===================http://www.brainlink.COM/~sunder/=========================
If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE 69c2d40cRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in the genocide of 2,500,000 Turks, Kurds, and Sephardic Jews
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > > The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet
> > > another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attempt
> > > to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be
> > > pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.
> >
> > Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes
> > mistakes in English.
>
> And both your points are totally irrelevant, if not outright wrong.
>
> > > My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.
>
> <51Kb spam message deleted.>
Don't interfere with possible stego transmissions, Ray.
> Vulis, this is your 2nd spam to this list which is totally unrelated to
> any cypherpunk issues. As this is totally off topic, flame mail, and
> spam, I suggest you grow up. Again my original message to you stand:
> grow up.
>
> 2nd, since you are bent on sending your flames to this list, I move to
> vote you off the list.
>
> Have a nice day.
And I move to vote to legalize same-sex marriage. My good friend and colleague,
the world-famous historian Serdar Argic, has cited these additional references
concerning Ray Arachelian's criminal dandruff-covered grandparents:
_Mitteilungsblatt_ Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately
forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi
collaboration.
A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The
magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of
Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the
name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi
cooperation, is attention-getting.
This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is
historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of
writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all
mankind.
In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and
certain political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to
them. They occupied positions in public service and were partners in
Nazi practices. The whole world of course knows what awaited those
who were not considered _Aryan_ and what befell them.
The Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots -- Nazi Armenians) was the
youth organization of the Armenians. It was based in Boston (where
Muslim/Jewish Holocaust apologists of SDPA/Armenian Church are located)
but had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means _to make a religion of one's race._ The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Armenians to inspire and organize the American-Armenian
youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local Armenian youth groups
in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20 chapters in the initial year, the
Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters and became the largest and most powerful
Nazi Armenian organization. Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with
a philosophy:
_The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first._[1]
[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian),
_Armenian Affairs_ Winter, 1949-50, p. 19, footnote.
The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10,
1936 edition of _Hairenik Weekly_ (an official mouthpiece for
the ex-Soviet Armenian Government) the vice-mayor of Bucharest,
Rumania is quoted as saying:
_The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
elements in our country._
In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes:
_And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of
all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
criticism._[1]
[1] Captain George Haig, _The Case of Palestine_ in Hairenik
Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
As amply admitted by the ex-Soviet Armenian Government,
the Armenians were also fascist. Before Pearl Harbor,
the Dashnak daily _Hairenik_ [an official mouthpiece
for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government] (not to be confused
with the Tzeghagrons _Hairenik Weekly_) expressed pro-Nazi
sentiments:
_And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the
fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a
system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy._[1]
[1] _Hairenik_ official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept.
17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson (see endnote 1), p. 21.
During World War II, while the Turkish Government was giving
asylum to many Jews fleeing from Hitler's tyranny, anti-Semitism
engulfed the Armenian circles in the Nazi-occupied territories.
A publication of the Armenian Information Service in New York,
entitled Dashnak Collaboration With The Nazi Regime, purports
to show that Armenian sympathies with racism had reached dangerous
proportions. The following quotation from the Armenian daily
Hairenik of 19, 20 and 21 August 1936 exposes something much
more than prejudice and bigotry:
_Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers...
are compelled to create an atmosphere..of internationalism and
world citizenship in order to preserve their race...As the
British use battleships to occupy lands..Jews use internationalism
or communism as a weapon..Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate
these poisonous elements when they have struck deep root like
a chronic disease. And when it becomes necessary for a people
to eradicate them...these attempts are regarded revolutionary.
During a surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural
thing...Under such conditions, dictatorships seem to have a role
of saviour [1]._
[1] Quoted by James Mandalian: _Who are the Dashnags?_ Boston,
Hairenik Press, 1944, pp. 13-4.
In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that
city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August
of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under
the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and
other ''undesirables'' destined for the Nazi concentration camps.
The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist
and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to
the extermination of 'inferior' races [1].
This is confirmed by Armenophil Christopher J. Walker, who admits
that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him,
members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas,
including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis
sympathies. A report in an American magazine went so far as to
claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth-
column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its
cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the
Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and
active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a
decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian
812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a
small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians.
Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later
grew to 30,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and
the North Caucasus.(These are the dates and numbers given by Walker[3].)
A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council
was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German
Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was
Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian,
and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that
date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien,
edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio
Berlin. The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians
were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seemed to have
achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the
occupied lands [2].
[1] Turkkaya Ataov: _Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims_
1984, p. 91.
[2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8.
_Emperor Romanus I Lecapenus, in about 935, again ordered the
forcible conversion of all the Jews of Byzantium, leading to the
murder of hundreds of Jews and the desecration of many synagogues
throughout the empire. All the while Jews came under increasingly
savage attack by Byzantine popular preachers and writers as well as
by officials trying to stir the populace in support of the Crusading
knights coming from the West to wrest the Holy Land from the "infidel
Muslims". As a result, Emperor Andronicus I Comnenus (1183-85) again
attempted to convert the Jews to Christianity, though by persuasion
and argument rather than force. When Crusaders passed through
Constantinople on their way to the Holy Land, they invariably were
assigned to camp next to the Jewish quarters, particularly that
adjacent to the Galata Tower, and usually spent most of their spare
time attacking and killing Jews and stealing their properties. At the
same time they stirred local populace to similar activities. It was
at this time, also, that Constantinople's Armenians joined the Greeks
in attacking Judaism for the first time. [1]_
[1] Yvonne Friedman, 'Antijudischen Polemik des 12 jahrhunderts',
Kairos XXVI/1-2 (1984), 80-88.
''Blood libel accusations were made against Jews by Ottoman Christian
subjects starting in the sixteenth century, most frequently in the
Arab provinces, first at Jerusalem in 1546. The most famous Christian
assault on Ottoman Jews in medieval times came in the central Anatolian
town of Amasya some time between 1530 and 1540, when a blood-libel
accusation against local Jews was spread by local Armenians who said
that an Armenian woman had seen Jews slaughter a young Armenian boy
and use his blood at the feast of Passover. Several days of rioting
and pillaging and attacks on Jews followed...Later, however, the
Armenian boy who supposedly had been murdered was found and the
Ottoman governor punished the Armenian accusers, though nothing could
be done about the Jews who had suffered.''[1]
''There were literally thousands of incidents in subsequent years,
invariably resulting from accusations spread among Greeks and Armenians
by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian
financiers and merchants who were anxious to get the Jews out of the
way, resulting in isolated and mob attacks on Jews, and burning of
their shops and homes [2]. The attacks were brutal and without mercy.
Women, children, and aged Jewish men were frequently attacked, beaten
and often killed.''[3]
[1] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'',
Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1103 (1991).
[2] Abraham Ben-Yakob (Jerusalem), ''The Immigration of Iraki Jews
to the Holy Land in the 19th Century'', paper delivered to the
First International Congress for the Study of Sephardic and
Oriental Judaism, 27 June 1978.
[3] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'',
Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1129 (1991)
By Andrew Sackser:
Throughout history the children of Israel have suffered at hands
of others. A people set apart from their neighbors by their
faith, countless. Jews have often had to pay for this faith with
their lives. There was, however, one haven where Jews did not
suffer the large-scale persecution characterizing their entire
existence. This haven was Turkey. For over five hundred years
Jews have flourished there, enjoying relatively uninterrupted
freedom and safety that has only been rivaled in America. This
year marks the quincentennial anniversary of the ingathering of
Jews to Turkey, and highlights one of the brighter chapters in
Jewish history.
...
Source: HIRHURIM - The Jewish Magazine of Brendeis University
(Massachusetts). Vol. 1, No: 2, Spring 1992
NODE d6b24f6fRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray "GAK" Arachelian's role in the murder of 2,500,000 Turks, Kurds, and Sephardic Jews
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > > The friend and colleague of your whom you know says much about you. Yet
> > > another Net Loon. You action of posting a 48K spam to this list in attemp
> > > to get me upset has resulted in a single, half-felt yawn. Others may be
> > > pissed at your attempt at spamming me. I give not a shit.
> >
> > Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian and Ray makes
> > mistakes in English.
>
> And both your points are totally irrelevant, if not outright wrong.
>
> > > My original message to you stands: Vulis, grow up.
>
> <51Kb spam message deleted.>
>
> Vulis, this is your 2nd spam to this list which is totally unrelated to
> any cypherpunk issues. As this is totally off topic, flame mail, and
> spam, I suggest you grow up. Again my original message to you stand:
> grow up.
Nonsense. Timmy, Sandy, and a few other jerks on this mailing list are
obsessed with my alleged Cossack (???) ethnicity. The massacres perpetrated
by the grandparents and cousins of the censorous flamer, who actually
distributes a "filtered" version of the mailing list - with responses to his
flames edited out, is more on-topic than anything Timmy May has ever posted.
> 2nd, since you are bent on sending your flames to this list, I move to
> vote you off the list.
>
> Have a nice day.
And I move to vote Timmy May off the list for lying, forging quotes,
posting flame bait and personal attacks, and generally being a jerk.
P.S. My good friend and colleague, the world-famous historian Dr. Serdar
Argic, has cited this additional information about Ray's grandparents:
_Mitteilungsblatt_ Berlin, December 1939, Nr. 2 and 5-6
Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately
forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi
collaboration.
A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft
is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The
magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of
Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the
name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi
cooperation, is attention-getting.
This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is
historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of
writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all
mankind.
In Nazi Germany, Armenians were considered to be an Aryan race and
certain political, economic, and social rights were thus granted to
them. They occupied positions in public service and were partners in
Nazi practices. The whole world of course knows what awaited those
who were not considered _Aryan_ and what befell them.
The Tzeghagrons (Armenian Racial Patriots -- Nazi Armenians) was the
youth organization of the Armenians. It was based in Boston (where
Muslim/Jewish Holocaust apologists of SDPA/Armenian Church are located)
but had followers in Armenian colonies all over the world. Literally
Tzeghagron means _to make a religion of one's race._ The architect
of the Armenian Racial Patriots was Garegin Nezhdeh, a Nazi Armenian
who became a key leader of collaboration with Hitler in World War II.
In 1933, he had been invited to the United States by the Central
Committee of the Armenians to inspire and organize the American-Armenian
youth. Nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local Armenian youth groups
in the Tzeghagrons. Starting with 20 chapters in the initial year, the
Tzeghagrons grew to 60 chapters and became the largest and most powerful
Nazi Armenian organization. Nezhdeh also provided the Tzeghagrons with
a philosophy:
_The Racial Religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity.
Race above everything and before everything. Race comes first._[1]
[1] Quoted in John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian),
_Armenian Affairs_ Winter, 1949-50, p. 19, footnote.
The Armenians were deeply anti-semitic as well. In the May 10,
1936 edition of _Hairenik Weekly_ (an official mouthpiece for
the ex-Soviet Armenian Government) the vice-mayor of Bucharest,
Rumania is quoted as saying:
_The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
elements in our country._
In another edition, an author named Captain George Haig writes:
_And the type of Jew who is imported to Palestine...is not anything
to be proud about. Their loose morals, and other vices were
unknown to the Arabs prior to Balfour Declaration, on top of
all communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab
criticism._[1]
[1] Captain George Haig, _The Case of Palestine_ in Hairenik
Weekly, Friday, September 25, 1936.
As amply admitted by the ex-Soviet Armenian Government,
the Armenians were also fascist. Before Pearl Harbor,
the Dashnak daily _Hairenik_ [an official mouthpiece
for the ex-Soviet Armenian Government] (not to be confused
with the Tzeghagrons _Hairenik Weekly_) expressed pro-Nazi
sentiments:
_And came Adolf Hitler, after herculean struggles. He spoke
to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the
fountain of his national genius, strock down the spirit
of defeatism...At no period since the World War had Berlin
conducted so realistic, well organized, and planned policy
as now, since Hitler's assumption to power...And whatever
others may think concerning Hitlerism and Fascism as a
system of Government, it is proved that they have revitalized
and regenerated the two states, Germany and Italy._[1]
[1] _Hairenik_ official organ of the Dashnaktsuitune, Sept.
17, 1936; quoted in John Roy Carlson (see endnote 1), p. 21.
During World War II, while the Turkish Government was giving
asylum to many Jews fleeing from Hitler's tyranny, anti-Semitism
engulfed the Armenian circles in the Nazi-occupied territories.
A publication of the Armenian Information Service in New York,
entitled Dashnak Collaboration With The Nazi Regime, purports
to show that Armenian sympathies with racism had reached dangerous
proportions. The following quotation from the Armenian daily
Hairenik of 19, 20 and 21 August 1936 exposes something much
more than prejudice and bigotry:
_Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers...
are compelled to create an atmosphere..of internationalism and
world citizenship in order to preserve their race...As the
British use battleships to occupy lands..Jews use internationalism
or communism as a weapon..Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate
these poisonous elements when they have struck deep root like
a chronic disease. And when it becomes necessary for a people
to eradicate them...these attempts are regarded revolutionary.
During a surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural
thing...Under such conditions, dictatorships seem to have a role
of saviour [1]._
[1] Quoted by James Mandalian: _Who are the Dashnags?_ Boston,
Hairenik Press, 1944, pp. 13-4.
In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that
city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August
of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under
the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and
other ''undesirables'' destined for the Nazi concentration camps.
The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist
and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to
the extermination of 'inferior' races [1].
This is confirmed by Armenophil Christopher J. Walker, who admits
that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him,
members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas,
including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis
sympathies. A report in an American magazine went so far as to
claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth-
column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its
cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the
Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and
active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a
decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian
812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a
small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians.
Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later
grew to 30,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and
the North Caucasus.(These are the dates and numbers given by Walker[3].)
A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council
was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German
Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was
Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian,
and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that
date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien,
edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio
Berlin. The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians
were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seemed to have
achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the
occupied lands [2].
[1] Turkkaya Ataov: _Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims_
1984, p. 91.
[2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8.
_Emperor Romanus I Lecapenus, in about 935, again ordered the
forcible conversion of all the Jews of Byzantium, leading to the
murder of hundreds of Jews and the desecration of many synagogues
throughout the empire. All the while Jews came under increasingly
savage attack by Byzantine popular preachers and writers as well as
by officials trying to stir the populace in support of the Crusading
knights coming from the West to wrest the Holy Land from the "infidel
Muslims". As a result, Emperor Andronicus I Comnenus (1183-85) again
attempted to convert the Jews to Christianity, though by persuasion
and argument rather than force. When Crusaders passed through
Constantinople on their way to the Holy Land, they invariably were
assigned to camp next to the Jewish quarters, particularly that
adjacent to the Galata Tower, and usually spent most of their spare
time attacking and killing Jews and stealing their properties. At the
same time they stirred local populace to similar activities. It was
at this time, also, that Constantinople's Armenians joined the Greeks
in attacking Judaism for the first time. [1]_
[1] Yvonne Friedman, 'Antijudischen Polemik des 12 jahrhunderts',
Kairos XXVI/1-2 (1984), 80-88.
''Blood libel accusations were made against Jews by Ottoman Christian
subjects starting in the sixteenth century, most frequently in the
Arab provinces, first at Jerusalem in 1546. The most famous Christian
assault on Ottoman Jews in medieval times came in the central Anatolian
town of Amasya some time between 1530 and 1540, when a blood-libel
accusation against local Jews was spread by local Armenians who said
that an Armenian woman had seen Jews slaughter a young Armenian boy
and use his blood at the feast of Passover. Several days of rioting
and pillaging and attacks on Jews followed...Later, however, the
Armenian boy who supposedly had been murdered was found and the
Ottoman governor punished the Armenian accusers, though nothing could
be done about the Jews who had suffered.''[1]
''There were literally thousands of incidents in subsequent years,
invariably resulting from accusations spread among Greeks and Armenians
by word of mouth, or published in their newspapers, often by Christian
financiers and merchants who were anxious to get the Jews out of the
way, resulting in isolated and mob attacks on Jews, and burning of
their shops and homes [2]. The attacks were brutal and without mercy.
Women, children, and aged Jewish men were frequently attacked, beaten
and often killed.''[3]
[1] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'',
Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1103 (1991).
[2] Abraham Ben-Yakob (Jerusalem), ''The Immigration of Iraki Jews
to the Holy Land in the 19th Century'', paper delivered to the
First International Congress for the Study of Sephardic and
Oriental Judaism, 27 June 1978.
[3] Stanford J. Shaw, ''Christian Anti-Semitism in the Ottoman Empire'',
Belleten C. LIV, 68, p.1129 (1991)
By Andrew Sackser:
Throughout history the children of Israel have suffered at hands
of others. A people set apart from their neighbors by their
faith, countless. Jews have often had to pay for this faith with
their lives. There was, however, one haven where Jews did not
suffer the large-scale persecution characterizing their entire
existence. This haven was Turkey. For over five hundred years
Jews have flourished there, enjoying relatively uninterrupted
freedom and safety that has only been rivaled in America. This
year marks the quincentennial anniversary of the ingathering of
Jews to Turkey, and highlights one of the brighter chapters in
Jewish history.
...
Source: HIRHURIM - The Jewish Magazine of Brendeis University
(Massachusetts). Vol. 1, No: 2, Spring 1992
NODE 9597c45fRe: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray "GAK" Arachelian's role in the murder of 2,500,000 Turks, Kurds, and Sephardic Jews
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Nonsense. Timmy, Sandy, and a few other jerks on this mailing list are
> obsessed with my alleged Cossack (???) ethnicity. The massacres perpetrated
> by the grandparents and cousins of the censorous flamer, who actually
> distributes a "filtered" version of the mailing list - with responses to his
> flames edited out, is more on-topic than anything Timmy May has ever posted.
I don't debate what Tim May has posted or not. His value to this list
far outweighs yours. I debate that what you are posting here in this
thread is nothing more than flames, and therefore off topic.
My ancestors are not a topic for the cypherpunks, and if you go and read
messages sent by me your way have zero refrences to your ethnic
background. Your racially loaded, "dandruff-covered" vitriolic flames
have no place here. However this is totally irrelevant since the subject
is off topic.
As for "censorous flamer" you sir have done plenty to make my filtered
list thrive. I have received by far more new subscribers to the filtered
version than ever before. Why? Because everyone is tired of you and
your silly flames. Were I mercenary enough to charge money for the
filtered list, you, sir would have made me a rich man.
However, you are doing nothing to hurt me in any way. I don't care what
your oppinions are as to my ancestry, nor do I care to satisfy them one
way or another by answering your cretinous flames.
Other than to point out that you need some serious growing up. I've seen
3 year olds more mature than you Vulis.
You seem to think that you can get away with anything. But keep pushing,
eventually you'll say something that will wind you up with a slander suit.
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@sundernet.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
========================http://www.sundernet.com=============================
If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE 57f10544Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray "GAK" Arachelian's role in the murder of 2,500,000 Turks,
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:17:24 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> writes:
> My ancestors are not a topic for the cypherpunks, and if you go and read
> messages sent by me your way have zero refrences to your ethnic
> background. Your racially loaded, "dandruff-covered" vitriolic flames
> have no place here. However this is totally irrelevant since the subject
> is off topic.
I used to think that ethnic flames were off-topic for cypherpunks, but seeing
how Timmy May and his friends sput off every day about "crazy Russians", I'm
beginning to think that it may be on-topic.
Surely the fact that Armenians have massacred more Jews and Moslems during
20th century alone than there are Armenians has certain connections to
assassination politics.
> As for "censorous flamer" you sir have done plenty to make my filtered
> list thrive. I have received by far more new subscribers to the filtered
> version than ever before. Why? Because everyone is tired of you and
> your silly flames. Were I mercenary enough to charge money for the
> filtered list, you, sir would have made me a rich man.
I pity the fools who want a genodical maniac to filter what they read.
> However, you are doing nothing to hurt me in any way. I don't care what
> your oppinions are as to my ancestry, nor do I care to satisfy them one
> way or another by answering your cretinous flames.
You certainly write several times more on this subject than I do.
> You seem to think that you can get away with anything. But keep pushing,
> eventually you'll say something that will wind you up with a slander suit.
Spoken like a true Libertarian. They always threaten to sue for
libel whenever they disagree with someone.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE c2833dedSlander by Vulis. Possible lawsuit?
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis (spammer and flame artist) KOTM wrote:
> I used to think that ethnic flames were off-topic for cypherpunks, but seeing
> how Timmy May and his friends sput off every day about "crazy Russians", I'm
> beginning to think that it may be on-topic.
Right. How many "crawzy Russians" messages have you seen from me? If
I've attacked you, it's your cowardice and your spamming that I've
attacked. Show me a message I've posted that attacks your ancestry?
> Surely the fact that Armenians have massacred more Jews and Moslems during
> 20th century alone than there are Armenians has certain connections to
> assassination politics.
Nice try. Assassination Politics have little to do with your masacres,
and I am not about to bring up the earlier massacre of Armenians by Turks.
There is of course a second side to every coin, but of course you fail to
report on that, because your reports are of the yellowest form of journalism.
It is indeed a nice try, but all you are doing is posting spam news
postings which are copyrighted. And again, you didn't answer the
question of whether or not you received permission to copy those texts
and post them on line.
Had you brought up the question of how this applies to assasination
politics, you might have gotten away with some of it, but alas, you
didn't think of that until now
Next question - if that stuff has any relation to assasination politics,
why didn't you bring it up until now? Possibly because you needed some
reason to justify your flames, right? :) Your excuses are very very thin
Vulis.
> > As for "censorous flamer" you sir have done plenty to make my filtered
> > list thrive. I have received by far more new subscribers to the filtered
> > version than ever before. Why? Because everyone is tired of you and
> > your silly flames. Were I mercenary enough to charge money for the
> > filtered list, you, sir would have made me a rich man.
>
> I pity the fools who want a genodical maniac to filter what they read.
Maybe so, but you are the reason they have joined my list. Doesn't that
just warm the cockles of your heart? You are actually helping my
filtered list with your cretinous flames and spams. Doesn't it make you
feel good?
> > However, you are doing nothing to hurt me in any way. I don't care what
> > your oppinions are as to my ancestry, nor do I care to satisfy them one
> > way or another by answering your cretinous flames.
>
> You certainly write several times more on this subject than I do.
Judging at how you like to send 48Kb spams every once in a while -
technically not written by you, yes - you seem to have a lot more racial
prejudice than you would like others to believe.
Again, where did I bring up your ancestry? And where did you bring up
mine? You seem to have little tiny balls, and one way you inflate them
is by claiming to have been racially snubbed, but the truth is you are
attempting to damage my reputation with racial slanders.
Tell me Vulis, and prove this, in what way am I responsible for the
single death or maiming of any person? Show us the evidence. Not your
flamed news postings, but real evidence.
I was not born in the region where that war exists, I never lived there.
In fact, my parents weren't even born there. You see Vulis, my
grandparents left that scraggy piece of land called Armenia while their
families were masacred by the Turks. So how is it that you claim that my
ancestors and are responsible for wars going on now when they weren't
even anywhere near it?
You also insinuate that by extension I am responsible for attacks against
Muslims and Jews. That too is slanderous and racist, as racist as any
attack you claim has wronged you.
I'd call that accusation and lack of proof slanderous. What do the
lawyers on this list think? Hrmmm?
> > You seem to think that you can get away with anything. But keep pushing,
> > eventually you'll say something that will wind you up with a slander suit.
>
> Spoken like a true Libertarian. They always threaten to sue for
> libel whenever they disagree with someone.
And why not? If you libel my name, it will cost you. And that's not
libertarianism, it's capitalism. Just as trademark infringement and
copyright laws are settled through money. (Speaking of copyright, you've
yet to prove written permission for your repostings sir.)
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@sundernet.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
========================http://www.sundernet.com=============================
If the Macintosh is a woman... Then Windows is a Transvestite!
ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE 2725f040Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems [RANT]
Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:41:35 -0700 (PDT)
Michael Peponis wrote:
> :> > > Vulis, grow up.
> That about sums it up.
> It's one thing to endlessly insult Tim May. I can just ignore those.
> It's another thing to send huge files full of irrevelent bable about
> genocide in some third world country that I have to wait till it
> downloads before I can make the determination that it's pure garbage.
> (No, I don't killfile people on this list, maybe I should start)
[snip]
Gee, genocide everywhere. If you say the word often enough, it loses some of its sting,
doesn't it? How does it make you feel to know that you're here because your ancestors
survived, probably because they were ruthless enough to trample on those less able to
defend themselves. Now I'm gonna catch hell for posting more noise, so all together
now, let's stick our heads back in the sand. It's not our responsibility, 'cause after
all, we're just crypto people.
BTW, that Vulis post was a *lot* larger than necessary.
NODE 8a6af4f0Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems [RANT
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:51:07 -0700 (PDT)
Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:
> Michael Peponis wrote:
> > :> > > Vulis, grow up.
> > That about sums it up.
> > It's one thing to endlessly insult Tim May. I can just ignore those.
> > It's another thing to send huge files full of irrevelent bable about
> > genocide in some third world country that I have to wait till it
> > downloads before I can make the determination that it's pure garbage.
> > (No, I don't killfile people on this list, maybe I should start)
>
> [snip]
>
> Gee, genocide everywhere. If you say the word often enough, it loses some of
> doesn't it? How does it make you feel to know that you're here because your
It certainly rivals the Holocaust of 6M Jews during WW2. One important
difference is that Nazi Germans had specially built death camps with
trained personnel, while in 1905, 1914, and again in 1992, every Armenian
wanted to take part in the massacres.
> survived, probably because they were ruthless enough to trample on those less
> defend themselves. Now I'm gonna catch hell for posting more noise, so all t
> now, let's stick our heads back in the sand. It's not our responsibility, 'c
> all, we're just crypto people.
As I said, *I* don't see what relevance ethnic flames could possibly have
to a supposedly crypto-related mailing list, but Timmy May and his few friends
clearly disagree - witness their many rants about Russians and Cossacks (????)
as well as attacks on mormons. I also recall some clearly anti-Semetic rants
from Timmy May (something about Israel deserving to be nuked).
As for Ray, he's a typical hate-filled Armenian. Armenian heritage has been
defined for centuries in terms of "race-worship" and hatred for Moslems,
Jews, and anyone else non-Armenian. It's somewhat surprising to see such
stereotypical "old-country" behavior in an alleged Californian.
And I don't see any evidence that Timmy or Ray are "crypto people".
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 37bfea2fslander and call for lawyers. :)
Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com>Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> As I said, *I* don't see what relevance ethnic flames could possibly have
> to a supposedly crypto-related mailing list, but Timmy May and his few friends
> clearly disagree - witness their many rants about Russians and Cossacks (????)
> as well as attacks on mormons. I also recall some clearly anti-Semetic rants
> from Timmy May (something about Israel deserving to be nuked).
If that's the case, then why are you posting anti-Armenian flame spams?
Your pots are blacker than your kettle?
> As for Ray, he's a typical hate-filled Armenian. Armenian heritage has been
> defined for centuries in terms of "race-worship" and hatred for Moslems,
> Jews, and anyone else non-Armenian. It's somewhat surprising to see such
> stereotypical "old-country" behavior in an alleged Californian.
The above paragraph is clearly slanderous. Up until now you've danced
around it. Here you clearly state and implicate me in your racist
remarks. Congratulations, you can now be sued. As for Californian,
you've another thing coming. I'm not in California. You might be very
surprised to find out just where I live. But don't worry, you will have
to deal with this in a court of law. Have a nice day Vulis.
So there you have it folks, a clear and outright slanderous remark. We
have lawyers on this list, who wants to hang Vulis out to dry? As for his
previous remarks, I've saved them too. There's more than enough to get a
nice tidy bunch of bucks out of him, I understands he runs D&M
consulting, right? I'm sure his business makes a tidy profit, so there's
a nice go there.
> And I don't see any evidence that Timmy or Ray are "crypto people".
That's because you're not a crypto person and have no clue as to who
are. I'm not about to sit here and trumpet the things I've done for
crypto. Neither will Tim.
=============================================================================
+ ^ + | Ray Arachelian |FL| KAOS KERAUNOS KYBERNETOS |==/|\==
\|/ |sunder@sundernet.com|UL|__Nothing_is_true,_all_is_permitted!_|=/\|/\=
<--+-->| ------------------ |CG|What part of 'Congress shall make no |=\/|\/=
/|\ | "A toast to Odin, |KA| law abridging the freedom of speech'|==\|/==
+ v + |God of screwdrivers"|AK| do you not understand? |=======
========================http://www.sundernet.com=============================
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ActiveX! ActiveX! Format Hard drive? Just say yes!
NODE 508ff91bRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
Is Ray the genocidal maniac going to be represented by the legal team of
Helena Kobrin and Cantor & Siegal?
I'd nominate my good friend, Dr. John M. Grubor (the founder of Internet),
for Ray's all-star legal team, except that he's been disbarred.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 348d7b71Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>Fri, 25 Oct 1996 05:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Is Ray the genocidal maniac going to be represented by the legal team of
> Helena Kobrin and Cantor & Siegal?
If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent him free of
charge.
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>
--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist Switzerland
NODE d244416dRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SANDY SANDFORT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
C'punks,
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:
> If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent
> [Ray] free of charge.
Now THAT would be a community service.
S a n d y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NODE 8b1596ceRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>
> On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:
>
> > If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent
> > [Ray] free of charge.
>
> Now THAT would be a community service.
Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California
for Ray's lithium bill.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE df4bb484Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>Sat, 26 Oct 1996 13:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:
> >
> > > If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent
> > > [Ray] free of charge.
> >
> > Now THAT would be a community service.
>
> Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California
> for Ray's lithium bill.
Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose
of harming that persons image or character is likely actionable.
I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to
substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.
>
> ---
>
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>
--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist Switzerland
NODE 6bbfe6b7Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:58:51 -0800 (PST)
In <Pine.SUN.3.94.961026164648.10071G-100000@polaris>, on 10/26/96 at 04:48 PM,
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> said:
>On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>> >
>> > On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:
>> >
>> > > If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent
>> > > [Ray] free of charge.
>> >
>> > Now THAT would be a community service.
>>
>> Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California
>> for Ray's lithium bill.
>Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose of
>harming that persons image or character is likely actionable.
>I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to
>substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.
Well as much as it pains me to take Dimitri's side I doubt that any damages can be
proved by his statements on this list. My reasoning for this opinion is as follows:
A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished capacity.
B. Everyone on the list is aware of point A.
C. So with A & B true when Dimitri makes his nutty statements they are taken by the
list as just that, nutty statements.
Under the above I find it hard to see any real damage caused by Dimitri's statements.
Granted Dimitri is an anoying pest, I don't think that a lawsuite will do anything to
slow him down as I don't see one as winable.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0
Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
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-----------------------------------------------------------
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NODE a45078a4Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
Lsurfer@cris.com (Randy Bradakis)Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:50:50 -0800 (PST)
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote:
[snip]
{Well as much as it pains me to take Dimitri's side I doubt that any damages
{can be proved by his statements on this list. My reasoning for this opinion
{is as follows:
{
{A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished
{capacity.
{
{B. Everyone on the list is aware of point A.
BZZZZT. Point A well taken. Point B fails, unfortunately. Brought to
my attention not so long ago by a post something along the lines of
"I'll take it for granted that Timmy May is a wanker, but what about
the crypto stuff on this list." You can't disregard that there is a
constant rotation of subscribers to this list.
{C. So with A & B true when Dimitri makes his nutty statements they are taken
{by the list as just that, nutty statements.
You're correct, so long as it's someone that's been on the list for
long enough to realize that DV appears to have a problem distinguishing
real information from his fantasies.
By the by, I'd be happy to spend a few bucks to defray those legal
expenses, if it actually comes to that. Either that, or I'll be
happy to supply the rolled-up newspaper to whack him upon the nose.
NODE 8a8bf27dRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)Sat, 26 Oct 1996 18:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
Black Unicorn wrote:
> I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to
> substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.
OK, suppose that this list was for legal punks...
Suppose that this winter Mr. X was elected Kook of the Month. Suppose
also that Mr. Y was very happy with this fact and his friends announced
it all over USENET, posting to all of the professional newsgroups that
Mr. X posts to, and several dozens of other newsgroups affected by Mr.
X.
Mr. X alleged that this announcement was actionable libel. Mr. Y thought
that since Mr. X really was elected, posting the truth could not be
actionable libel.
Mr. X, however, did not accept the results of Kook elections and simply
said that he was not a kook and all who say otherwise would be sued.
Various people got even happier, started laughing and posted messages to
the effect that Mr. X is a dumb liar in addition to being a cook. Mr. X
continued threatening lawsuits, but with no real action (due to extreme
lack of funds).
Who is right? Did Mr. Y's friends really libel Mr. X?
Thank you very much...
- Igor.
NODE 8f2ba5dcRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>Sun, 27 Oct 1996 06:07:38 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> Black Unicorn wrote:
>
> > I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to
> > substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.
>
> OK, suppose that this list was for legal punks...
[Facts deleted]
> Who is right? Did Mr. Y's friends really libel Mr. X?
You really want an answer to this?
> Thank you very much...
>
> - Igor.
>
--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist Switzerland
NODE d531fa52Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Sat, 26 Oct 1996 18:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:
> Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose
> of harming that persons image or character is likely actionable.
William Shakespeare has a very appropriate AP quote in Henry IV(?).
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 5931a152Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>Sun, 27 Oct 1996 05:24:02 -0800 (PST)
In <Pine.SUN.3.94.961026164648.10071G-100000@polaris>, on 10/26/96 at 04:48 PM,
Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> said:
>On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>> Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
>> >
>> > On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Black Unicorn wrote to Dimitri:
>> >
>> > > If you don't watch it I'll have a pair of my staff represent
>> > > [Ray] free of charge.
>> >
>> > Now THAT would be a community service.
>>
>> Why don't you use the funds pledges for my defunct trip to California
>> for Ray's lithium bill.
>Suggesting that a person is on a psychoactive mediciation with the purpose of
>harming that persons image or character is likely actionable.
>I'd be careful if I were you. If said individual ever manages to
>substantiate damages you've got an interesting time ahead of you.
Well as much as it pains me to take Dimitri's side I doubt that any damages can be
proved by his statements on this list. My reasoning for this opinion is as follows:
A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished capacity.
B. Everyone on the list is aware of point A.
C. So with A & B true when Dimitri makes his nutty statements they are taken by the
list as just that, nutty statements.
Under the above I find it hard to see any real damage caused by Dimitri's statements.
Granted Dimitri is an anoying pest, I don't think that a lawsuite will do anything to
slow him down as I don't see one as winable.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
Cooking With Warp 4.0
Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
Look for MR/2 Tips & Rexx Scripts
Get Work Place Shell for Windows!!
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info
-----------------------------------------------------------
*MR/2 ICE: Have you crashed your Windows today?
NODE d4137fd6Re: slander and call for lawyers. :)
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Sun, 27 Oct 1996 06:40:09 -0800 (PST)
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:
> A. Dimitri is a nut, kook, ...ect. Definitely suffering from dimished capacity
This can be used as an excuse in a criminal trial, but I don't think this
applies to civil - does it?
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
NODE 3653949dRe: slander and call for lawyers. :)
ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home)Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Ray Arachelian wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > Jews, and anyone else non-Armenian. It's somewhat surprising to see such
> > stereotypical "old-country" behavior in an alleged Californian.
>
> > And I don't see any evidence that Timmy or Ray are "crypto people".
>
> That's because you're not a crypto person and have no clue as to who
> are. I'm not about to sit here and trumpet the things I've done for
> crypto. Neither will Tim.
He is a crypto person. Look up his dissertation about collective
encryption.
- Igor.
NODE ac668f10Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu>Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:41:32 -0700 (PDT)
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:
>
> Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian
Hmm, that's odd, I had heard he was a CSci grad student here.
I guess I'll have to take a stroll over and check out the PhD thesis,
probably subtitled "Determining meaning of words by usage; Turkey
can also be a bird".
Heh.
--
Kevin L. Prigge | Some mornings, it's just not worth
Systems Software Programmer | chewing through the leather straps.
Internet Enterprise - OIT | - Emo Phillips
University of Minnesota |
NODE 56dcf4f5Re: [SERDAR ARGIC] Ray Arachelian's role in massacare of 2,500,000 Moslems
dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Kevin L Prigge <Kevin.L.Prigge-2@tc.umn.edu> writes:
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM said:
> >
> > Dr. Serdar Argic is a world-famous historian
>
> Hmm, that's odd, I had heard he was a CSci grad student here.
>
> I guess I'll have to take a stroll over and check out the PhD thesis,
> probably subtitled "Determining meaning of words by usage; Turkey
> can also be a bird".
Yes. Timmy May is a fat turkey.
---
Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps