Re: Utah as a Religious Police State

I am going out of my mind behind this one.  Please kill this topic.  
I left the Mormon church long ago, and I don't want a dose of LDS 
with my crypto-fix!

On or About  2 Oct 96 at 12:33, Deana Holmes wrote:

> On  2 Oct 96 at 8:47, John C. Randolph wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Moroni says:
> > 
> > >I never cease to be surprised by the interest that gentiles show
> > >in working mormon communities while totally neglecting their own
> > >failing areas.
> > 
> > I don't do a lot of nit-picking on this mailing list, but:
> > 
> > I am a Jew. *You* are a gentile. So are all the rest of the mormons.
> > Get this point straight.
> 


> Uh, in Utah, Jews are Gentiles. No lie.

Yeah, I knew that.  I know plenty, and there are many pages for 
recovering Mormons.  Believe me, I've been there.  I could go on about 
my personal experiences of being on the "fast track" to church 
leadership, but that's the point.  I would rather not hear about it 
here.

Ross 

=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ross Wright
King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services
http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia
Voice: 415-206-9906

"Ross Wright" <rwright@adnetsol.com> writes:
>
> > Uh, in Utah, Jews are Gentiles. No lie.
>
> Yeah, I knew that.  I know plenty, and there are many pages for
> recovering Mormons.  Believe me, I've been there.  I could go on about
> my personal experiences of being on the "fast track" to church
> leadership, but that's the point.  I would rather not hear about it
> here.

Does LDS have an official position on GAK?

(We have at least one mormon asshole here, attilla, who's obviously pro-GAK)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

on 03 Oct 1995, Dr. Dimitri Vulis KOTM <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> defecated:

-.(We have at least one mormon asshole here, attilla, who's obviously pro-GAK)
-.
    ------
  
        pro-GAK?   either me or the average Utahn?   really?    

        no way.  

        other than Salt Lake City area which might be more pro-GAK,
    which were it not for Temple Square, etc. could be just any other
    large city with a Mormon MINORITY.  the population influx asking 
    to be able to join our safe communities and values has not only 
    changed the balance of power in favour of outsiders, but the 
    outsiders brought their social problems (gangs, drugs, morals, etc.)
    with them.   and maybe willing to trade their freedoms for 
    temporary security.  surprised?

        ask questions before you quote me (or anyone) as to their 
    position on constitutional matters.  your innuendos and depravity
    is unworthy of any educated Western individual, or do you not
    consider yourself a Western intellectual?  maybe you really are 
    only capable of playing the Vodka sotted Russian fool?  where is
    your dancing bear?

        I think I have more than a few credentials for being anti
    anything the Feds propose on curbing the Bill of Rights and the
    Constitution  --including more than several visits from the boys 
    in grey trench coats in the early morning, and being arrested and
    charged by the Feds with both crypto and 'trading with the enemy' 
    --the fear of public disclosure is what stops them from going even
    to indictment.  and, I endured one of their standard forms of pay-
    back, at a personal price we shall not discuss.

        a man is considered lucky if he has one true friend when he is
    down and being kicked by the Feds;  I found a virtual army of good
    people, many outside my immediate ward, who not only did not turn
    their backs, but actively supported; many not even knowing what 
    the fight was about, let alone understanding it other than not
    only my rights, but theirs as well, were be trampled upon by the 
    Feds.  

        do you have any friends like that? 

        --to you, that is a loaded question which  probably should 
    been framed as '...do you have any friends?'  

            but I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.

        dimitri (in the diminutive), go sniff a few flowers to counter
    your rank stench of incivility.  go wander the boardwalk as an
    obscure soul.  lighten up; the glass of water we ALL drink from
    is still at least half-full, not half-empty.  sometimes life does
    give free refills.

--
  "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress"
        --Mark Twain

attila <attila@primenet.com> writes:
<pro-GAK mor(m)on propaganda skipped>
>   "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress"
>         --Mark Twain

Mark Twain had some very negative things to say about your criminal cult.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

In <k2X9uD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 10/03/96 
   at 07:35 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

-.attila <attila@primenet.com> writes:
-.
-.> <pro-GAK mor(m)on propaganda skipped
-.>
-.>   "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress" >        
-.> --Mark Twain

-.Mark Twain had some very negative things to say about your criminal cult.
-.

        WRONG, read the entire article.  in the balance he was rather 
    positive in his "review" of the Mormons, particularly family life 
    and work ethic.  the first part of his rambling was critical more
    from the very negative attitude to the Mormons in MIssouri at
    the time Samuel Clemmons was growing up.  The three bloody marches
    in winter with a loss of over 6,000 lifes were less than 10 years 
    history in his childhood.

        One of our most basic beliefs in the 13 Articles of Faith
    (in addition to the ten commandments) is that we believe everyone
    should be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, any 
    religion, as they wish to observe;  we only ask the same of them.

        For instance, when the Catholic Church established a parish in
    Salt Lake City, they had no meeting place.  Brigham Young granted
    them the free use of the Tabernacle on Temple Square why they were
    raising money to build their own church.
    
        The same was true in St. George; the classic tabernacle at
    main & tabernacle was used free of charge by the Catholics until
    they were able to erect their own church, school, etc at 200 N 300W,
    two blocks down the street from Brigham Young's winter residence.

        I have never believed we have been persecuted for religion.
 
        the work ethic, and the extended 'ward' family, where everyone
    cooperated on advancing the community --for instance, one family
    took the responsibility of making soap (nasty job which takes time)
    for everyone, and so on.  This is cooperative "husbandry"/industry, 
    and it was beneficial to everyone; there are numerous others.

        even today, our wards are organized so individual families
    have a "skill" for the ward should we find ourselves isolated
    in a wall street disaster, a natural disaster, or whatever.

        do you have 3 years of food storage?  almost 4,000 lbs.
    and 9,000 gallons of drinking water for 3 years for a family of  
    5?  --that's 72,000 lbs (36 tonnes!... ) almost 10,000 cu. ft.

        we work and we share. which means prosperity, which means
    economic success, which usually means stable, cohesive politics.
    and this too often creates not only jealousy and hostility from our
    non-Mormon neighbors, but fear.  

        therefore, the basest of arguments and untruths are used 
    against us to justify the quick  annihilation of the "offenders in
    our midst."

        but what inflames the anti-mormon passions the most is the 
    paid clergy of other organized religions whose employment is 
    the paid ministry to their flock.  Mormons threaten their jobs; 
    the mormons have no paid ministry; it is all part of our 
    "callings" to do the Lord's work.
 
        The 40,000 young men and women who leave MTC in Provo, 
    and other training centers, each graduation to scatter to every
    country in the world, have earned their *own* money to support 
    themselves on their two year missions. these young men and 
    women return with unbelievably positive attitudes and the 
    satisfaction they earned the money themselves --which took 
    planning and perseverance.

        Dimitri, try reading a balanced analysis of the LDS faith, the
    teachings, and their accomplishments before you jump off and prove
    your ignorance and bigotry...  it will not harm you, and you might
    be surprised at what you learn, particularly "forgiving those who
    trespass against us."  -no retaliation.

        remember, all members are missionaries in a way; noone will
    *ask* you to join. all we do is offer you the opportunity to 
    *investigate* our beliefs and our community.  After *you* study
    the materials and ask questions, it is up to you to get on your 
    knees and ask the Lord if you should join.  We neither ask nor
    tell you you will die an agonizing death, again and again in 
    eternity, if you do not join.  everyone is there own free agent,
    and we can not influence your "free agency"  --we will not
    pursue you if your prayers are not answered; but we will still be
    you friend, and our offer to participate in our services and our
    activities is still extended.

        For instance, I will never attack you with hate speech, and 
    even my sarcasm is questionable, despite the fun a good play on 
    words provides;  you could probably snitch me off to my bishop and
    I would likely face a church council.  As a high priest, that is a 
    serious matter.

        something else you probably do not know:  we NEVER pass the
    plate at any service.  tithing is a private matter.

--
  "I don't make jokes. 
    I just watch the government and report the facts."
        --Will Rogers

In <k2X9uD23w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, on 10/03/96 
   at 07:35 PM, dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said:

-.attila <attila@primenet.com> writes:
-.
-.> <pro-GAK mor(m)on propaganda skipped
-.>
-.>   "The only natural criminal class in America, the U.S. Congress" >        
-.> --Mark Twain

-.Mark Twain had some very negative things to say about your criminal cult.
-.

        WRONG, read the entire article.  in the balance he was rather 
    positive in his "review" of the Mormons, particularly family life 
    and work ethic.  the first part of his rambling was critical more
    from the very negative attitude to the Mormons in MIssouri at
    the time Samuel Clemmons was growing up.  The three bloody marches
    in winter with a loss of over 6,000 lifes were less than 10 years 
    history in his childhood.

        One of our most basic beliefs in the 13 Articles of Faith
    (in addition to the ten commandments) is that we believe everyone
    should be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, any 
    religion, as they wish to observe;  we only ask the same of them.

        For instance, when the Catholic Church established a parish in
    Salt Lake City, they had no meeting place.  Brigham Young granted
    them the free use of the Tabernacle on Temple Square why they were
    raising money to build their own church.
    
        The same was true in St. George; the classic tabernacle at
    main & tabernacle was used free of charge by the Catholics until
    they were able to erect their own church, school, etc at 200 N 300W,
    two blocks down the street from Brigham Young's winter residence.

        I have never believed we have been persecuted for religion.
 
        the work ethic, and the extended 'ward' family, where everyone
    cooperated on advancing the community --for instance, one family
    took the responsibility of making soap (nasty job which takes time)
    for everyone, and so on.  This is cooperative "husbandry"/industry, 
    and it was beneficial to everyone; there are numerous others.

        even today, our wards are organized so individual families
    have a "skill" for the ward should we find ourselves isolated
    in a wall street disaster, a natural disaster, or whatever.

        do you have 3 years of food storage?  almost 4,000 lbs.
    and 9,000 gallons of drinking water for 3 years for a family of  
    5?  --that's 72,000 lbs (36 tonnes!... ) almost 10,000 cu. ft.

        we work and we share. which means prosperity, which means
    economic success, which usually means stable, cohesive politics.
    and this too often creates not only jealousy and hostility from our
    non-Mormon neighbors, but fear.  

        therefore, the basest of arguments and untruths are used 
    against us to justify the quick  annihilation of the "offenders in
    our midst."

        but what inflames the anti-mormon passions the most is the 
    paid clergy of other organized religions whose employment is 
    the paid ministry to their flock.  Mormons threaten their jobs; 
    the mormons have no paid ministry; it is all part of our 
    "callings" to do the Lord's work.
 
        The 40,000 young men and women who leave MTC in Provo, 
    and other training centers, each graduation to scatter to every
    country in the world, have earned their *own* money to support 
    themselves on their two year missions. these young men and 
    women return with unbelievably positive attitudes and the 
    satisfaction they earned the money themselves --which took 
    planning and perseverance.

        Dimitri, try reading a balanced analysis of the LDS faith, the
    teachings, and their accomplishments before you jump off and prove
    your ignorance and bigotry...  it will not harm you, and you might
    be surprised at what you learn, particularly "forgiving those who
    trespass against us."  -no retaliation.

        remember, all members are missionaries in a way; noone will
    *ask* you to join. all we do is offer you the opportunity to 
    *investigate* our beliefs and our community.  After *you* study
    the materials and ask questions, it is up to you to get on your 
    knees and ask the Lord if you should join.  We neither ask nor
    tell you you will die an agonizing death, again and again in 
    eternity, if you do not join.  everyone is there own free agent,
    and we can not influence your "free agency"  --we will not
    pursue you if your prayers are not answered; but we will still be
    you friend, and our offer to participate in our services and our
    activities is still extended.

        For instance, I will never attack you with hate speech, and 
    even my sarcasm is questionable, despite the fun a good play on 
    words provides;  you could probably snitch me off to my bishop and
    I would likely face a church council.  As a high priest, that is a 
    serious matter.

        something else you probably do not know:  we NEVER pass the
    plate at any service.  tithing is a private matter.

--
  "I don't make jokes. 
    I just watch the government and report the facts."
        --Will Rogers

attila <attila@primenet.com> writes:
...
>         Dimitri, try reading a balanced analysis of the LDS faith, the
>     teachings, and their accomplishments before you jump off and prove
>     your ignorance and bigotry...
...

Well - I have a very different opinion of all religions in general and
your criminal cult in particular, and I think we'll just have to agree
to disagree. We have nothing to gain by debating the virtues of LDS any
further - and if we did, we should do it on alt.religion.mormon or on
soc.religion.mormon moderated, not on this mailing list.

There's an asshole named Timmy May who started this flame thread, and
many others like it. Timmy has nothing to contribute to the cryptography
discussions, so he entertains himself by attacking various people and
their religious views and watching the resulting flame wars.

I suggest that in the future we all ignore Timmy's flame bait.
Just killfile the asshole.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police
State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con-
Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.)

My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs.
Personally, I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets
(better than police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's
glowing opinion of how his community "enforces curfews big time." Telling
people when they can be on public streets and when they cannot is no
different than telling them what they can read and what they cannot.

("Telling them" in the sense of backing it up with the power of the state.
For example, the LDS church is perfectly free to "tell" its members not to
read the books of, say, Juanita Brooks. However, this may not be enforced
by the government or its police and court arms, so long as Utah is part of
these United States. Period.)

Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme."
Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to
the "I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in
the rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the
world, though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11).

This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of
settlers committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in
history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the
present.

I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced
curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting
this particular law), etc.

--Tim

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

The resent the word cult being used to describe my religions.
While I don't think it is good to make fun of even one's own religion I
really think that it is in bad taste to knock another's religion. Time and
bandwidth have been wasted on more than one occasion with your
interjecting your personal views about other peoples religions only to
find that other people do not view their faiths academically. I think that
all religion should be kept off this list . I did not become a member to
prostelytise people on this list and did not expect other people to start
agitating mormons or moslems or Jews or other faiths. I mind my p's&q's
but I don't have and certainly will sit idly by when someone makes my
people look bad. Any trouble that you have made starting this thread was
done by you so don't complain.
         Inciderntally, I emailed tilly a great source for soy meats for
all those that have emailed me to say that they are returning to the
church.


On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> 
> I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police
> State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con-
> Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.)
> 
> My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs.
> Personally, I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets
> (better than police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's
> glowing opinion of how his community "enforces curfews big time." Telling
> people when they can be on public streets and when they cannot is no
> different than telling them what they can read and what they cannot.
> 
> ("Telling them" in the sense of backing it up with the power of the state.
> For example, the LDS church is perfectly free to "tell" its members not to
> read the books of, say, Juanita Brooks. However, this may not be enforced
> by the government or its police and court arms, so long as Utah is part of
> these United States. Period.)
> 
> Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme."
> Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to
> the "I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in
> the rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the
> world, though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11).
> 
> This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of
> settlers committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in
> history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the
> present.
> 
> I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced
> curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting
> this particular law), etc.
> 
> --Tim
> 
> "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
> that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
> [NYT, 1996-10-02]
> We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
>

Moroni wrote:
> The resent the word cult being used to describe my religions.
> While I don't think it is good to make fun of even one's own religion
> I really think that it is in bad taste to knock another's religion.
> Time and bandwidth have been wasted on more than one occasion with
> your interjecting your personal views about other peoples religions
> only to find that other people do not view their faiths academically.
> I think that all religion should be kept off this list . I did not
> become a member to prostelytise people on this list and did not expect
> other people to start agitating mormons or moslems or Jews or other
> faiths. I mind my p's&q's but I don't have and certainly will sit idly
> by when someone makes my people look bad. Any trouble that you have
> made starting this thread was done by you so don't complain.
> Inciderntally, I emailed tilly a great source for soy meats for
> all those that have emailed me to say that they are returning to the
> church.

> On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

[Tim's text deleted to save space only]

To Moroni: You talk about "my people" and "my religion".  Do you *own* 
these people?  Maybe your church owns their minds, huh?  What purpose 
does big-time organized religion serve other than to control the 
otherwise dangerous and predatory species we call human?

I guess if "your people" didn't kill anyone this year (or this decade, 
or in the last 50 years ad nauseam), then we should pin a medal on your 
chest, yes?  Frankly, it doesn't matter per se what "your people" pledge 
to do or not do, what matters is you, and me, and other individuals who 
*learn* not to kill, and to not have a desire to kill, and so forth.

"Your people" are always going to frighten others and stir up paranoia, 
for the very simple reason that:  1. They're human, and therefore are 
predators, and  2. In a large group like the Mormons, they have real 
power.  And this applies to all such groups, BTW.

In <v03007808ae7af10d0afb@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/04/96 
   at 09:03 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

-.Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme."
-.Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to the
-."I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in the
-.rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the world,
-.though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11).
-.
        dont worry, there has never been a book burning in Utah --even 
    when it was fashionable in the East for almost two centuries.  
    anyone who advocates book burning in Utah is not LDS.

        the LDS church does not disseminate a list of proscribed
    literature, and does not actually 'preach' anything other than
    what we consider 'acceptable' morality.  everyone has their own
    "free agency" and if they are practicing, certainly understand
    what those standards mean.  personally, I see nothing wrong with
    nudity, but R pictures have starting to approach what was X and
    is now NC-17 (under 16) --and NC-17 now includes almost what was
    XXX.

        the Church does not dictate, nor actually moralize --each 
    individual is left with their own responsibility and the impending
    review of their mortal life.

-.I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police
-.State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con-
-.Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.)
-.
        tim, at the end (instead of here where it probably belongs) is
    some extended food for thought on how a corrupt Fed regulates
    thought and action --starting in the 1800s, proving that the party
    in power, even in a supposed democratic republic, still dictates
    what you will read, think, and practice.  the more I study (what is
    now --going on since I started school in 1945), the more cynical
    I become of human nature and the abuse men have permitted
    from whatever government extant.  

        if you think about it, the actions against the LDS in the 1800s
    is very little different than the power hungry, corrupt Feds of 
    today who are attacking the Bill of Rights as obsolete in the
    face of todays terrorism (is it so different from any before except
    it is faster and deadlier?).

        In our (LDS) terms I refer to the Feds as the Gadianton robbers
    who were the insidious 'mafia' which usurped government power 
    under the guise of 'law and order' in a period of the book of 
    Mormon...
 
        --or even the Pharisees (the temple money changers) of Jesus' 
    time. The same concept of the Pharasees is still practiced by the 
    Jewish faith today.   (another comment on today's pharisee's --a
    truly amazing eye opener, towards the end). 

-.My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs.
-.
        No, I sure it was not --but you may have been the only one! <g> 

-.Personally,
-.I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets (better than
-.police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's glowing opinion
-.of how his community "enforces curfews big time." 
-.
        Frankly, we do not wish curfews, and there never were curfews 
    before the immense immigration into the area, mostly from So. CA,
    over the last 15 years which changed St. George from the small 
    town of less than the 5,000 in 1970 when I left St. George, to the
    almost 30,000 when I came home within the last year.  

        I chose not to actually return to St. George, where a two lane
    main drag had been changed from a two lane, tree line "road" 
    to a glitzed 4 lanes plus center lane boulevard, instead moving
    North to the rural high desert  (we have no legislated curfew).

        St. George today is not Mormon dominated politics, but the
    bulk of the immigrants expected to find, and maintain, that small
    town innocence --which they have more or less done. 

        However, these people, Mormons (some good, some inactive) and
    non-Mormans alike, unfortunately brought with them the alien 
    cultural they were trying to escape: bored children without super-
    vision, a junk food way of life, dual-income families, and children
    feeling aliented and lost in a world they do not understand --not
    St. George, but the world itself and its television age.

        It was in this atmosphere the "non-homogenous" but somewhat
    like thinking apparently demanded the permanent curfew --there is 
    absolutely nothing to do by that time, and milling around what
    passes for a mall here (grocery store) was/is not considered
    acceptable.  Secondly, St. George seems to attract an influx of
    3-5,000 high school students at Spring break (it is very warm
    by that time, despite the 3,000 ft  alt)  

        --but why?  there is nothing here.  they wanted beer, but they
    could not legally buy beer, or rent a hotel room under 18 --does
    not make sense.  so they had a milling, loose crowd of "foreign"
    teenagers.  --just like Sonny Bono, as mayor of Palm Springs,
    found himself with every year: illegal drinking,  convertibles
    with even pre-pubescent girls standing naked on the trunk decks,
    etc.  --don't say "where? where? where!?!

        well, that prompted the curfew, but they found it also 
    maintained the semblance of peacful family oriented community
    among the lost and alienated families --so it is apparently here
    to stay.  other than the fact we are telling tparents who do not 
    wish to manage their children they must keep them home or take them
    somewhere, what does the law do? 

-.Telling people when they
-.can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling
-.them what they can read and what they cannot.
-.
        that was my initial reaction -you wouldn't tell me that!  but 
    consider the right of society to legislate and  regulate in the 
    common good, despite both my and your abhorence of law in an of
    itself.  

        it is an effective means of forcing parents who do not seem to 
    care, or parents who wish to shift their responsibilities to social
    workers who are not available, they have a responsibility.  what
    happens to the violators --few are arrested, they are asked to go
    home. there is no great wild-west roundup of teenaged cattle! any
    who resist or commit minor vandalism are taken to the center --but,
 
        unlike every other city I have seen, they do not mix the 
    'miscreants' with the juvenile delinquents, repeat offenders, and 
    the teenagers who are obviously on their way to the dead end.

        what is the penalty?  call their parents for a ride home.  they
    are not fingerprinted and mugged, etc.  very few are required to
    even see a social worker.  consistent repeat offenders eventually
    enter the system --as they should.

-.I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced
-.curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting
-.this particular law), etc.

        actually, the curfew laws are local laws, and I reluctantly
    decided to support curfew laws for minors after looking at the
    means and results --it does provide an early point of intercepting
    behavioral patterns with the *parent* being the judge and warder,
    and hopefully give those parents a wakeup call they need to guide
    their children as they are fast approaching adulthood where they
    are fully accountable.

        alcohol is available at any large grocery store; it has not been
    banned to any extent since prohibition, but not necessarily avail-
    able in rural areas.  

        in Salt Lake City and the more heavily populated north, there 
    are bars.  prior to about 15 years ago, you could brown bag your
    own hard liquor to a restaurant; today restaurants have full 
    permits.  In St. George there actually is a bar! --you do need to 
    *know* where to find it (I was told a few weeks ago the area, but 
    I could care less).

        I do not think you can prohibit anything from adults --drugs,
    prescription or recreational, included --no matter how destructive.
    all 18 of the US code provides is a 'illegalization' of a criminal
    class with enormous financial power --and, worse, a corrupt and
    lawless enforcement agency with an equally corrupt and evil class
    of attorneys to protect both the distributors and the corrupt 
    opponents  --modern, legal, efficient predatation on a class. 

        legalize drugs, etc. and the ATF, the DEA, and a host of allied
    agencies which cause billions of dollars per year and provide
    nothing in return will be totally unnecessary (except to snoop for
    paranoid Bubba...)  --even Bubba could enjoy his five lines a day
    and not be in defiance of our legal system!

        and think of the destruction of the narco-terrorist gangs;
    --there would be no money, power, or illicit prestige; no enormous
    slush funds to put Uzis in the hands of an 8 year old, or bribe 
    cops and politicians.  our urban decay and combat zones would be
    boring --some might find it necessary to even learn enough to be
    able to watch a robomachine do the work!  this is beginning to 
    sound like utopia.

        so why do we not legalize dope?  simple: George Bush's income
    stream would dry up along with the literally thousands of other
    supposedly law-abiding politicians who are on the gravy train!

        take away the illicit profits for Congress and we might even 
    an honest reformer or two in Washington.




        certainly we are justified in ranting against any abridgement of 
    our right to freely (and privately) communicate, freedom of 
    *peaceful* assembly, a truly free press --certainly not the New 
    World Order blinded press printing the official line dictated by
    political/economic Boss Tweeds of what is effectively an oligarchy 
    --they do not possess common principles sufficient to even be
    called 'national socialists' (fascists). 

        or, there is a government like Washington where they are trying
    to, and may anyway, implement President Hillary's "It takes a 
    Global Village" so the state can dictate everything and raise a new
    generation of robots in the mold of their revisionist history which
    we are now suffering by attrition....   

        If Bubba and the President are reelected with a Democratic 
    Congress, we will not recognize our once almost free country in
    the space of a few short years.  Bubba is a space cadet political
    wonder  -the front man, wandering in his drug induced sub-space;
    Hillary is a the intelligent, crafty, 60s idealist socialist 
    liberal --dedicated and determined to impose her order at whatever
    expense of liberty necessary.

        or, Hillary's social order which plays directly into the hands 
    of the NWO, the very rich, old family elitists.  first the cradle to
    the grave thought control welfare state; and entire amorphous
    classes of thoughtless drones  --then comes the changes for the
    survival of the human race: the total disenfranchisement of major
    components of the underclass, and the establishment of an effec-
    tively feudal structure with a serf labor pool.

        or, the disturbing trend of an almost exponentially increasing
    prisoner class who are being shifted to prisons run by defense
    contractors who are permitted to "employ" them at minimum wage;
    paying WH, FUTA, FICA, and all that good stuff; and taking all but
    chump change for their room and board.  Today that decuction
    does not cover their actual confinement, but we can obviously rest
    assured the defense contractors will take the burden off the tax-
    payers (at what cost human suffering) *and* make a profit! 
    
        in other words, encouraging the breakdown of the classic 
    American family actually benefits the NWO by providing a lawless
    element which can be imprisoned for profit, and reduce the birth
    rate simultaneously --what a benefit!

-.I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced
-.curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting
-.this particular law), etc.


-.This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of settlers
-.committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in
-.history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the
-.present.

     
some historical thought on why lack of religious freedom:

        actually, when you look back in history, what was it that just just
    lit the fires in Washington which provoked the Feds to even
    legislate laws which contravened the whole concept of what the
    Constitution stands for --laws which literally dissolve the Church
    a legal entity, confiscated Church property in excess of $50,000
    [not that much by 1875], revoked woman's suffrage in Utah
    (Wyoming (which is heavily, though not predominantly Mormon,
    at that time enacted woman's suffrage first in the nation a few
    months before Utah), disenfranchised all officials of the Church,
    and any members practicing polygamy?

        other than the fact a number of territorial governors after
    the first one sent from Washington with Johnson's Army (trapped
    at Fort Bridger) who was gracious and therefore replaced by some
    pretty vicious and greedy slimeballs who transmitted messages to a
    very distant Washington of "rebellion" by armed and dangerous 
    outlaws, what was it?

        utah was a land no-one, including many of Brigham Young's
    followers wanted, but they had transformed a very inhospitable land
    into a virtual land of plenty. 

        even though Brigham Young was replaced as governor in 1858 by 
    the territorial governors from Washington, the Church was both
    monolithic and defensive --understandably.

The Pharisees are alive and well today:

            in my previous ward in California, the LDS chapel was "leased" 
    gratis, other than janitorial fees, (including totally rearranging our 
    own worship schedules to accommodate) to one Jewish temple's 
    overflow for the Rosh Hosana (sp?) and Yom Kipper holidays.

        their advance guard 'required' six hours to set up and I was
    still in our ward offices (member of the bishopric)  at the start...
    they litterally set up two rows of _money changing_ tables at the
    entrance (tables you must pass between); they had sold tickets of
    admission; and the seats in the chapel were sold like opera 
    tickets: priced according to location.  

        OK, that's their deal, I thought --so what?  but curiosity got
    the better of me, and I asked one of their people who appeared
    to be approachable about the seating --it was he who informed me
    of the price schedule --the front area seating was $10,000 per
    seat --anything moving into our multicultural hall (gym, etc.) which
    has acoustical 'curtains' between the chapel was still >$500!  I
    did not have the courage to ask what it cost to sit upon the dias!


-.--Tim

-."The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
-.that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT,
-.1996-10-02]
-.We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
-.---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
-.Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
-.tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
-.W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
-.Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
-."National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."





--
  "I don't make jokes. 
    I just watch the government and report the facts."
        --Will Rogers

Attila said:
> In <v03007808ae7af10d0afb@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/04/96 
>    at 09:03 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:
>         Frankly, we do not wish curfews, and there never were curfews 
>     before the immense immigration into the area, mostly from So. CA,

>         However, these people, Mormons (some good, some inactive) and

          (inactive=bad?)

>         well, that prompted the curfew, but they found it also 
>     maintained the semblance of peacful family oriented community
>     among the lost and alienated families --so it is apparently here
>     to stay.  other than the fact we are telling tparents who do not 
>     wish to manage their children they must keep them home or take them
>     somewhere, what does the law do? 

<snip>

> -.Telling people when they
> -.can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling
> -.them what they can read and what they cannot.
>         that was my initial reaction -you wouldn't tell me that!  but 
>     consider the right of society to legislate and  regulate in the 
>     common good, despite both my and your abhorence of law in an of
>     itself.  
     
GAK is for the "common good", after all, it is only the people who are
doing wrong that will be hurt by having their data scanned by the Government,
it is just maintaining decency standards.  
> 
>         it is an effective means of forcing parents who do not seem to 
>     care, or parents who wish to shift their responsibilities to social
>     workers who are not available, they have a responsibility.  what
>     happens to the violators --few are arrested, they are asked to go
>     home. there is no great wild-west roundup of teenaged cattle! any
>     who resist or commit minor vandalism are taken to the center --but,

     For most of my life I have had insomnia, and when I was in my early
to mid teens, I used to wait until my parents had gone to sleep, and 
go out and wander the neighborhood, Mostly alone, sometimes until 2 or
3 in the morning (during the summer, not when I had to be at school).

     Why _shouldn't_ I be allowed to do this? In my case, it was against 
my parents wishes, but I still harmed nothing, commited no crime (there 
was no curfew where I lived). My father almost caught me (he knew I did it
from time to time, but figured as long as I wasn't causing trouble, he 
wouldn't be able to stop me). Just because other children cause trouble, why
should _mine_ be restricted? Just because it gives the APPERANCE OF MORALITY?

     I'll say that again, THE APREARANCE OF MORALITY. Forcing someone to 
follow a given set of rules doesn't make that person moral, it makes them 
a slave. Morality only comes in when there is choice. 

     Also, the waters are calm on the surface, but what about underneath? 
What is going on behind closed doors? Here in the outerworld, we have 
fornication on the streets, but we know who is doing it, we _know_ who the 
problems are. Do you?   

>         unlike every other city I have seen, they do not mix the 
>     'miscreants' with the juvenile delinquents, repeat offenders, and 
>     the teenagers who are obviously on their way to the dead end.

     Almost all teenagers are on their way to a dead end. It is called 
"Adulthood", which if you look at it a certain way looks a lot like 
A Dolt Hood. 

     I don't necessarily think it is a bad idea to mix kids (mid to late 
teens) picked up for "real" crimes in with "real"  criminals, but then
I don't think that staying out late should be a crime. 

     Fear can be a powerful motivator.  

>         what is the penalty?  call their parents for a ride home.  they
>     are not fingerprinted and mugged, etc.  very few are required to
>     even see a social worker.  consistent repeat offenders eventually
>     enter the system --as they should.

     Really, I should be in "the system" because I like wandering around at
night? 
  
     Real libertarian of you. 

> -.I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced
> -.curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting
> -.this particular law), etc.
>         actually, the curfew laws are local laws, and I reluctantly
>     decided to support curfew laws for minors after looking at the
>     means and results --it does provide an early point of intercepting
>     behavioral patterns with the *parent* being the judge and warder,
>     and hopefully give those parents a wakeup call they need to guide
>     their children as they are fast approaching adulthood where they
>     are fully accountable.

     Mr. May's usage of "state" means "governing body" rather than "state of
the union". But you knew that. There are many other "interception" points 
that can be utilized to identify children whose parents are not providing 
them with the state approved ideological underpinings, Let's take a look 
at some shall we? 

     Your children do well in school correct? Straight A's in most classes? 
it is obvious that you are driving your children too hard, teaching them tp
be overacheivers. You shouldn't push them so hard, they should stay at the 
level of their classmates. 

     Ok, that was hyperbole. Seriously tho', if you talk to many "social 
workers" <pardon me--*spit*> they can give you certain behavior patterns that
indicate a child is being abused in the home. They could (and I am sure some 
would like to) go so far as to include certain types of religious and political
indoctrination as abuse. 

     If the state (city/county) mandates it, and it gives the apperance of 
"stopping crime", or simply provides a smooth surface, is it worth it? 

         alcohol is available at any large grocery store; it has not been
>     banned to any extent since prohibition, but not necessarily avail-
>     able in rural areas.  

    Not in your area, and maybe not my LDS's, but try Pell City Alabama.
Same mentality, different name on the church house door. 

>         I do not think you can prohibit anything from adults --drugs,

     Can, or should? Let _me_ run the DEA, and give me a good budget, and 
I will stop it. Yeah, people will die, but they are dying anyway. 

>         certainly we are justified in ranting against any abridgement of 
>     our right to freely (and privately) communicate, freedom of 
>     *peaceful* assembly, a truly free press --certainly not the New 
>     World Order blinded press printing the official line dictated by
>     political/economic Boss Tweeds of what is effectively an oligarchy 
>     --they do not possess common principles sufficient to even be
>     called 'national socialists' (fascists). 

     Yet you argue for the abridgement of freedoms based on age. Does the 
state know better than a parent when a minor is old enough to be out after
midnight?

>         or, there is a government like Washington where they are trying
>     to, and may anyway, implement President Hillary's "It takes a 
>     Global Village" so the state can dictate everything and raise a new
>     generation of robots in the mold of their revisionist history which
>     we are now suffering by attrition....   

     Which really only pisses most people off because it is a different
revisionist history than they want taught. 

>         If Bubba and the President are reelected with a Democratic 
>     Congress, we will not recognize our once almost free country in

     Or, he will push too far, too fast, and it will snap back in his face.

     Remember, Klinton can't do it without congressional approval. 


Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

(Attila's long post deleted to save space, and to keep me from commenting
on sections.)

This was one of the most thought-provoking pieces I've read. I can't say
I'm in favor of curfews, but Attila presented some thought-provoking
points,  consistent with my own "best is often the enemy of the good"
points.

I doubt I'm ready to move to St. George, Utah, attractive as it sounds in
some ways. (Nevada is probably just as attractive, and California even more
so, for me. I drove from Las Vegas to Reno, but gave up in the vaste
nothingness, and cut over through Tioga Pass and Yosemite to my area...boy,
was I happy to be back in California. For all of its oddnesses and
problems, it is truly an amazing place. Though I dislike some things about
it, I always come back.)

As to Moroni's objection to my characterization of LDS/Mormonism as a
"cult," I refer to _all_ religions this way. Catholocism, Judaism,
Protestantism, Mormonism, Buddhism, they are all roughly the same to me. If
you are offended, this is your problem. I take no position on which of
these belief systems are valid and which are not.

--Tim

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."