Fw: Re: ITAR satellite provision

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To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Thu Oct 03 08:09:13 1996

- -----Begin Included Message ----- 

Date: 
 From: 
To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Cc: 

To: jimbell@pacifier.com
Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996
> >*   A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching
> >*   of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this
> >*   subchapter.
> Okay, everybody, call Estes!  We've got some crypto to export...er...laun
> ch!
If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient 
to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that 
the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag 
and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the 
exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)

remo pini

- ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------
Remo Pini                        rp@rpini.com
PGP:  http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html
- ----< words are what reality is made of >----

- ---- End of forwarded message ----
- ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------
Remo Pini                        rp@rpini.com
PGP:  http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html
- ----< words are what reality is made of >----
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Alas, a common fallacy.

You have committed a prohibited export when the stuff lands outside the
USA....It's not illegal when it goes up ("by reason of the launching" and,
e.g. *stays up* in orbit)  but it is illegal when it comes down abroad. 


On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:
> > >*   A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching
> > >*   of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this
> > >*   subchapter.
> > Okay, everybody, call Estes!  We've got some crypto to export...er...laun
> > ch!
> If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient 
> to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that 
> the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag 
> and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the 
> exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
> 

**Benjamin Bradley Froomkin, b. Sept. 13, 1996, 8 lbs 14.5oz 21.5"**
                  **Age two weeks: 9 lbs 12 oz, 23"**
A. Michael Froomkin        | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax)
Associate Professor of Law | 
U. Miami School of Law     | froomkin@law.miami.edu
P.O. Box 248087            | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin
Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's hot here.  And humid.

Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law sez:
> 
> Alas, a common fallacy.
> 
> You have committed a prohibited export when the stuff lands outside the
> USA....It's not illegal when it goes up ("by reason of the launching" and,
> e.g. *stays up* in orbit)  but it is illegal when it comes down abroad. 
> 

"I just shoots them, who CARES where they come down?
It's not my department, said Werner Von Braun...."

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Remo Pini wrote:

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> 
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Date: Thu Oct 03 08:09:13 1996
> 
> - -----Begin Included Message ----- 
> 
> Date: 
>  From: 
> To: jimbell@pacifier.com
> Cc: 
> 
> To: jimbell@pacifier.com
> Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996
> > >*   A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching
> > >*   of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this
> > >*   subchapter.
> > Okay, everybody, call Estes!  We've got some crypto to export...er...laun
> > ch!
> If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient 
> to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that 
> the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag 
> and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the 
> exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)

The launching alone will not cause it to be an export.  If it is launched
and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export.  Certainly if it
is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.


> 
> remo pini
> 
> - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------
> Remo Pini                        rp@rpini.com
> PGP:  http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html
> - ----< words are what reality is made of >----
> 
> - ---- End of forwarded message ----
> - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------
> Remo Pini                        rp@rpini.com
> PGP:  http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html
> - ----< words are what reality is made of >----
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> 

--
I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist
unicorn@schloss.li

Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li> writes:
> > To: jimbell@pacifier.com
> > Date: Thu Oct 03 08:08:42 1996
> > > >*   A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching
> > > >*   of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this
> > > >*   subchapter.
> > > Okay, everybody, call Estes!  We've got some crypto to export...er...laun
> > > ch!
> > If I get the above wording correctly (unicorn, help me!), it is sufficient
> > to put the cryptostuff on a disc in a LAUNCHABLE device, it never says that
> > the payload has to be delivered by air. So, just put that thing in a bag
> > and get it through customs... (or does "by reason of ..." mean that the
> > exclusive means of export allowed is launching ?)
>
> The launching alone will not cause it to be an export.  If it is launched
> and then ends up outside the U.S., it could be an export.  Certainly if it
> is launched with the purpose of exporting crypto, it will be an export.

This reminds me of something I read about the race in the '50's and the '60's
as to whether the US or the USSR would launch the first satellite, the first
man in space, etc.

The US claimed that a nation's sovereignty ends a few thousand feet into
the atmosphere, so they had the right to fly the U2 planes at about 20K ft.

The Soviets supposedly kept claiming that everyone's airspace extends many
miles beyond the atmosphere, so if any US spy craft flying above Soviet
territory will be shot at.

Eventually the Soviets launched the first satellite and the first man in
space who, for technical reasons, had to fly through the space which the
USSR formerly recognized as other country's airspace. Then they suddenly
forgot about their claim and didn't even object when US remote sensing
satellites flew over the USSR some years later.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps