Re: Secrecy: My life as a nym. (Was: nym blown?)

Black Unicorn makes a lot of good points regarding privacy.  One thing
I wanted to follow up on:

> Unfortunately, in the United States most citizens only become interested
> in privacy in their 20s or so.  By this time it is difficult to overcome
> the mass of information which has been stored up.  (Pseudocide can be an
> attractive option for some perhaps).

I have two kids entering their teens, and I'm sure other list members are
parents as well.  What can we do for our children to help them enter their
adult lives with better chances to retain privacy?  Unicorn mentions keeping
them absent from school on picture day, although I'm not sure how much this
helps.  I suppose it makes it harder for an investigator to find out what
they look(ed) like.  Then when they get old enough to drive you have a new
problem avoiding the photo (and thumbprint) on the license.

Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?

Hal

Hal writes:
>Black Unicorn makes a lot of good points regarding privacy.  One thing
>I wanted to follow up on:
>
>> Unfortunately, in the United States most citizens only become interested
>> in privacy in their 20s or so.  By this time it is difficult to overcome
>> the mass of information which has been stored up.  (Pseudocide can be an
>> attractive option for some perhaps).
[...]
>Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
>young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?

Do not declare your children as dependants.  If you do then you are required
to get a SSN for them, but if you are willing to waive the tax savings there
is no requirement than children have a SSN.  Not having a handy universal
index number like a SSN makes it a lot harder for people to accumulate
statistics on your kids.

jim

Jim McCoy wrote:
> >Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> >young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
> 
> Do not declare your children as dependants.  If you do then you are required
> to get a SSN for them, but if you are willing to waive the tax savings there
> is no requirement than children have a SSN.  Not having a handy universal
> index number like a SSN makes it a lot harder for people to accumulate
> statistics on your kids.

This is an interesting topic. I apologize if my questions are too trivial,
but here they are: 

	1) Can a person without an SSN have a credit record? Some
	   may say that a credit record is a bad thing to have,
	   but I am still interested in a possibility.
	2) Will private lenders (such as credit card issuers or
	   mortgage companies) agree to extend credit to a person
	   without an SSN or to someone who refuses to give out his SSN?
	3) Will the state issue a driver's license to someone who does not
	   have/does not wish to give out their SSN?
	4) Will states' police (where applicable) approve purchases of
	   firearms if purchasers do not state their ssn (misstating it
	   may be a crime) on an application?
	5) Employers are required to pay certain taxes and therefore
	   they, in my understanding, need to know their employees SSNs.
	   How can people get around that (unless they do not need to work)?
	6) Can someone without an SSN obtain various kinds of insurance?

It is my understanding that the law does not regulate use of social 
security numbers between private parties. Businesses are free to refuse 
to do business with someone who does not present them an SSN. In real 
life, how inconvenient is life of a privacy-concerned individual?

Say, John Anonymous is a young 15 years old who anticipates to become an
engineer and have a middle class life. He wants to get married, have
children, drive a car, obtain insurance, work at some big company,
travel around the world, invest in mutual funds or buy stocks, and so
on. Reliance on government help is not important to him, so he would not
apply for an SSN solely to get Social Security, welfare and such.

His parents are cypherpunks and did not obtain an SSN for John. How much 
effort would it cost him to live a life outlined above?

Thank you

	- Igor.

On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jim McCoy wrote:
> > >Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> > >young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
> > 
> > Do not declare your children as dependants.  If you do then you are required
> > to get a SSN for them, but if you are willing to waive the tax savings there
> > is no requirement than children have a SSN.  Not having a handy universal
> > index number like a SSN makes it a lot harder for people to accumulate
> > statistics on your kids.
> 
> This is an interesting topic. I apologize if my questions are too trivial,
> but here they are: 
> 
> 	1) Can a person without an SSN have a credit record? Some
> 	   may say that a credit record is a bad thing to have,
> 	   but I am still interested in a possibility.

Yes.  Again, why this is so hard to understand I don't know.  I've said it
20 times on this list.  The SSN is only really revealed officially to the
Social Security Administration.  Even the IRS can't "get" it from the SSA,
they simply get a note from SSA which says "the name and number here don't
match up according to our records."  If they could get the number, they'd
just correct it, rather than sending you letters about it ever 6 months.

> 	2) Will private lenders (such as credit card issuers or
> 	   mortgage companies) agree to extend credit to a person
> 	   without an SSN or to someone who refuses to give out his SSN?

Extremely unlikely as the SSN is used to key the credit search.  I don't
want to encourage fraud or the like, but their ability to check for false
numbers is limited.

> 	3) Will the state issue a driver's license to someone who does not
> 	   have/does not wish to give out their SSN?

Depends on the state.  Some yes, some won't check, some require SSN cards
but accept alternative identification, some say no but will let you if you
complain enough.  You get the idea.

> 	4) Will states' police (where applicable) approve purchases of
> 	   firearms if purchasers do not state their ssn (misstating it
> 	   may be a crime) on an application?

This, again, depends on the state.
The SSN is available to police only if it is in a DMV or police record.
They cannot (excepting perhaps in extreme emergencies, though I've not
heard of such) get it directly from the SSA.

> 	5) Employers are required to pay certain taxes and therefore
> 	   they, in my understanding, need to know their employees SSNs.
> 	   How can people get around that (unless they do not need to work)?

Make a mistake on your form.  When the IRS discovers it, they will send
you, and perhaps your employer but I'm not sure, a letter complaining
about the error and telling you they cannot help you with this and you
have to go to the SSA to deal with it.

I have seen letters which threaten to withhold returns, but usually enough
complaints results in a return being issued anyhow.

> 	6) Can someone without an SSN obtain various kinds of insurance?

See above.
There is no way to verify that your SSN is correct if you did not tell
anyone what it was.

> It is my understanding that the law does not regulate use of social 
> security numbers between private parties. Businesses are free to refuse 
> to do business with someone who does not present them an SSN. In real 
> life, how inconvenient is life of a privacy-concerned individual?

As inconvenient is it is to give private businesses a string of random
numbers.

> Say, John Anonymous is a young 15 years old who anticipates to become an
> engineer and have a middle class life. He wants to get married, have
> children, drive a car, obtain insurance, work at some big company,
> travel around the world, invest in mutual funds or buy stocks, and so
> on. Reliance on government help is not important to him, so he would not
> apply for an SSN solely to get Social Security, welfare and such.
> 
> His parents are cypherpunks and did not obtain an SSN for John. How much 
> effort would it cost him to live a life outlined above?

As I mentioned, I have two associates who don't have, or have never used
their numbers and live quite happily in the United States.

The weak link is the fact that the SSA will not issue the actual numbers
to anyone but the applicant.

> Thank you
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

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At 8:26 AM -0800 11/11/96, Hal Finney wrote:

>I have two kids entering their teens, and I'm sure other list members are
>parents as well.  What can we do for our children to help them enter their
>adult lives with better chances to retain privacy?  Unicorn mentions keeping
>them absent from school on picture day, although I'm not sure how much this
>helps.  I suppose it makes it harder for an investigator to find out what
>they look(ed) like.  Then when they get old enough to drive you have a new
>problem avoiding the photo (and thumbprint) on the license.
>
>Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
>young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?

I think there are two important domains of privacy to distinguish:

1. The mundane.

2, The political.

The mundane domain is what most people think of initially, Things like "How
do I keep my name out of the system?" Or the point about kids.

The fact is, hundreds of millions of names are obviously--and almost
unavoidably--in the mundane public sector. I say "almost unavoidably"
because driver's licenses and social security numbers are ubiquitous.

(Side note: Jim McCoy's suggestion that kids can be kept off the
parental-unit's tax returns and thus not get a SS number is fraught with
problems. Many schools--including public schools--use the SS number for
various internal and tracking reasons. Even if the kid is free of SS
numbers until he's a teenager--at a cost of thousands of dollars a year in
IRS deductions not taken--he'll essentially have to have an SS number in
his high school years, for a variety of reasons. Maybe this can be avoided,
but I doubt the reward is worth the hassles.)

The second category is that of the political domain. If a person can
separate himself from the comments he makes, as Alois^H^H^H^H^H Black
Unicorn has done, then it hardly matters--in an important sense--that his
True Name has a SS number on file somewhere.

This is an important distinction in discussing privacy, I think. If I had a
rug rat, I doubt I'd go to great lengths to avoid getting him or her an SS
number. If the Feds offered me a yearly savings of $1000 or more on my
taxes, I'd take it.

(Given that it's almost an inevitability that the kid would have to "enter
the system" at about the age where it really begins to matter, e.g, the age
at which he or she begins to have political beliefs.)

--Tim May

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 8:26 AM -0800 11/11/96, Hal Finney wrote:
> 
> >I have two kids entering their teens, and I'm sure other list members are
> >parents as well.  What can we do for our children to help them enter their
> >adult lives with better chances to retain privacy?  Unicorn mentions keeping
> >them absent from school on picture day, although I'm not sure how much this
> >helps.  I suppose it makes it harder for an investigator to find out what
> >they look(ed) like.  Then when they get old enough to drive you have a new
> >problem avoiding the photo (and thumbprint) on the license.
> >
> >Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> >young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
> 
> I think there are two important domains of privacy to distinguish:
> 
> 1. The mundane.
> 
> 2, The political.
> 
> The mundane domain is what most people think of initially, Things like "How
> do I keep my name out of the system?" Or the point about kids.
> 
> The fact is, hundreds of millions of names are obviously--and almost
> unavoidably--in the mundane public sector. I say "almost unavoidably"
> because driver's licenses and social security numbers are ubiquitous.
> 
> (Side note: Jim McCoy's suggestion that kids can be kept off the
> parental-unit's tax returns and thus not get a SS number is fraught with
> problems. Many schools--including public schools--use the SS number for
> various internal and tracking reasons. Even if the kid is free of SS
> numbers until he's a teenager--at a cost of thousands of dollars a year in
> IRS deductions not taken--he'll essentially have to have an SS number in
> his high school years, for a variety of reasons. Maybe this can be avoided,
> but I doubt the reward is worth the hassles.)

Personally, I suggest that the dependent be identified with an erronious
SSN number.  If the dependent exists it is hard to make a fraud case and
the deductions are usually allowed anyhow.

I'm not sure what "a variety of reasons" in the highschool years is.  As
for hastles, I can't think of what they might be, other than going to the
SSN web page to construct a properly formatted number which the SSA will
report as "Issued" (as opposed to "Unissued").  This is one of the few
pieces of information that is given out.

Again, DMVs cannot check to see that the number matches the name, only if
it was issued and if the first three digits correspond to location where
the number was supposedly "issued" from.  (If not one can always claim to
have lived in the state that DID issue that number).

> The second category is that of the political domain. If a person can
> separate himself from the comments he makes, as Alois^H^H^H^H^H Black
> Unicorn has done, then it hardly matters--in an important sense--that his
> True Name has a SS number on file somewhere.

I disagree.
The lack of a social security number makes the first part easier.  They
are most certainly connected in the research into the few clues that will
have to slip out, will not lead back to any fact which can be later used
to narrow down the field.  (The first three numbers of a SSN for example).

> This is an important distinction in discussing privacy, I think. If I had a
> rug rat, I doubt I'd go to great lengths to avoid getting him or her an SS
> number. If the Feds offered me a yearly savings of $1000 or more on my
> taxes, I'd take it.

Pity, but still, you can avoid it without sacrificing the dependent
deduction.

> (Given that it's almost an inevitability that the kid would have to "enter
> the system" at about the age where it really begins to matter, e.g, the age
> at which he or she begins to have political beliefs.)

I don't understand why this is so.  Perhaps I missed a link in the chain
here?

--
Forward complaints to : European Association of Envelope Manufactures
Finger for Public Key   Gutenbergstrasse 21;Postfach;CH-3001;Bern
Vote Monarchist         Switzerland

> (Side note: Jim McCoy's suggestion that kids can be kept off the
> parental-unit's tax returns and thus not get a SS number is fraught with
> problems. Many schools--including public schools--use the SS number for
> various internal and tracking reasons. Even if the kid is free of SS
> numbers until he's a teenager--at a cost of thousands of dollars a year in
> IRS deductions not taken--he'll essentially have to have an SS number in
> his high school years, for a variety of reasons. Maybe this can be avoided,
> but I doubt the reward is worth the hassles.)
 
I recently enrolled my kid in school. On a form they asked what her SSn was. I just 
left the form blank. Later when they asked me about it, I asked if it was =required=, 
prepared to have them provide me with stautory citations. They said it was not 
required, but that they needed a way to keep records. I suggested they use her name. 
Since that wouldn't work with their computer, I suggested they make one up that fit 
the program.



------------------------
Name: amp
E-mail: amp@pobox.com
Date: 11/13/96
Time: 23:10:57
Visit http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum

EARTH FIRST! We'll strip mine the other planets later.
------------------------

For starters, don't get them a National ID, um, social security number.
I'm pretty sure that makes it a lot harder to put the dossier, um,
_profile_ together.

Brad

On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Hal Finney wrote:

> Black Unicorn makes a lot of good points regarding privacy.  One thing
> I wanted to follow up on:

> 
> Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
> 
> Hal
>

> 
> Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?

Every couple of months I one of my kids brings home a form from school
asking everything from how many kids in the family, how much money do I
make, do we own our home and other things that have nothing to do with
educating my children.

At first I just pitched them, but then they started getting on my kids for
not returning them.  When they did that I went to the school and demanded
to see a background history and credit report on every school employee who
came in contact with my child.  They refused sighting privacy etc...  I
told them I had the same rights and to stop hasseling me with their little
forms.

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At 8:20 AM -0800 11/12/96, Vince Callaway wrote:
>>
>> Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
>> young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
>
>Every couple of months I one of my kids brings home a form from school
>asking everything from how many kids in the family, how much money do I
>make, do we own our home and other things that have nothing to do with
>educating my children.
>
>At first I just pitched them, but then they started getting on my kids for
>not returning them.  When they did that I went to the school and demanded
>to see a background history and credit report on every school employee who
>came in contact with my child.  They refused sighting privacy etc...  I
>told them I had the same rights and to stop hasseling me with their little
>forms.

Interesting comments. I don't have children, let alone children in school,
but I sure as hell would not answer such questions. I count myself lucky
that when I was in the public school system there were no such questions,
at least I never heard of any.

I wonder to what extent children are asked questions about their home life,
or about the things their parents do, without the parents even being in the
loop? If not now, soon. For example, children may be asked to fill out
questionaires on whether they've been spanked, whether alcohol and smoking
is present, whether guns are in the house, and so on.

(This is part of the generally totalitarian mindset which is pervasive in
the public school system. Last year I paid over $8000 in *property* taxes,
ostensibly largely for public schools (and of course I paid a whole lot
more in various other taxes). I have no children, as I said. And yet the
public schools wanted a cut of gambling revenues, which they got (kind of
gives a "does not compute" when the schools moralize about the dangers of
gambling, expel kids for being in card or dice games, and so on, all the
while being the main beneficiary of what Heinlein called a tax on
stupidity). Further, the schools brainwash the kids into cajoling their
parents to donate time, computers, labor for fixups, and even cash.)

Sadly, it is quite possible that by sufficiently obstreprous about such
things, the school counsellors could initiate investigations by Child
Protective Services, on vague grounds that the "home environment" is not
sufficiently nurturing (= politically correct). Here in the People's
Republic of California, they have nearly unchallenged authority to remove
children from homes on their own say so, with the parental-units then
forced to hire lawyers and mount a court challenge.

(Needless to say, meeting the CPS Gestapo agents with the display of a
gun--which would be the normal reaction Americans should have to kidnappers
of their children--would result in one's immediate arrest and the immediate
seizure of the children.)

Opinions may be changing. I get a lot of double takes and then smiles and
laughter when I wear my "D.A.R.E." t-shirt. "D.A.R.E. stands for "Drug
Abuse Resistance Education," and is a nationwide program run jointly by the
police departments and schools, in which children are taught the "reefer
madness" dangers of drugs, alchohol, etc., and are given instructions on
who to call if they suspect their parents are illegally using drugs. This
"junior narc" program has resulted in the breakup of many families, as
parents were hauled away to jail and kids were put in foster homes because
the little Pavel Morozovs narced out their parents.

So, why do I get double takes and smiles? Because my shirt, bought from
someone advertising it in alt.drugs, says:

"D.A.R.E." [in large red letters]

"I turned in my parents
and all I got was this
lousy t-shirt."

(Interestingly, I wore this t-shirt to a pool party last summer. A couple
I've known for many years has a 14-year-old son. The mother sternly
lectured me on the poor message I was sending to her son, and said I was
not to talk to the kid about my views on drug legalization, etc. I bit my
tongue, avoiding saying "Fuck off," but could not restrain myself from
saying, "I'll talk to whoever I want. It's up to you to control who your
son talks to." Rude? Perhaps. But the mindset of brainwashed zombies is
what creates this police state mentality. Who knows, it may even be a
technical crime ("contributing to the delinquency of a minor"?) to even
discuss basic libertarian ideas with a minor. And as I said, Child
Protective Services could quite possibly seize a child whose parents were
sufficiently vocal about their beliefs.)


Perhaps someday we'll see the "C.A.R.E." program--Crypto Abuse Resistance
Education.

"Now children, if you see someone you think is using illegal computer
programs, or someone who is talking in a way that we have told you to watch
out for, here are some phone numbers you can call. Your daddy and mommy may
just need to be re-educated, just like we are re-educating you here in this
People's Public School."

--Tim May



"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Hal Finney wrote:

> Black Unicorn makes a lot of good points regarding privacy.  One thing
> I wanted to follow up on:
> 
> > Unfortunately, in the United States most citizens only become interested
> > in privacy in their 20s or so.  By this time it is difficult to overcome
> > the mass of information which has been stored up.  (Pseudocide can be an
> > attractive option for some perhaps).
> 
> I have two kids entering their teens, and I'm sure other list members are
> parents as well.  What can we do for our children to help them enter their
> adult lives with better chances to retain privacy?  Unicorn mentions keeping
> them absent from school on picture day, although I'm not sure how much this
> helps.  I suppose it makes it harder for an investigator to find out what
> they look(ed) like.  Then when they get old enough to drive you have a new
> problem avoiding the photo (and thumbprint) on the license.

Yearbooks are literally a publication.  If you wish to be extreme about
privacy, it is hardly prudent to allow your children's name and face to be
linked in a widely diseminated publication.

Fingerprints are not mandatory, or even requested, on all driver's
licenses.  Many states do not keep copies of the photos.  The only records
available are name, DOB, etc.  (Illinois was one of these, but I haven't
checked lately).

> 
> Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
>

Avoid getting a social security number.
You can list them as dependents for several years if you stall with the
IRS about their social security number.  The worst I have even seen the
IRS do is send (rather bland) letters complaining about the number being
in error.  They hardly have time to follow up on each one.  And if they
do, failing to apply for a number is hardly a crime.  Each parent could
easily say "I thought you did it."  "No, honey, you did."  "No, I didn't."
The auditer would kick you out of the office.

> Hal
> 

--
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