Re: IPG Algorith Broken!

At 6:56 PM 11/23/1996, The Deviant wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
>> The good news is that you can prove a negative.  For example, it has
>> been proven that there is no algorithm which can tell in all cases
>> whether an algorithm will stop.
>
>No, he was right.  They can't prove that their system is unbreakable.
>They _might_ be able to prove that their system hasn't been broken, and
>they _might_ be able to prove that it is _unlikely_ that it will be, but
>they *CAN NOT* prove that it is unbreakable.  This is the nature of
>cryptosystems.

Please prove your assertion.

If you can't prove this, and you can't find anybody else who has, why
should we believe it?

>> diGriz
>
>Use an anon. remailer and sign your posts.  Brilliant.  Just brilliant.

Oops!

diGriz

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:

> 
> At 6:56 PM 11/23/1996, The Deviant wrote:
> >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> >> The good news is that you can prove a negative.  For example, it has
> >> been proven that there is no algorithm which can tell in all cases
> >> whether an algorithm will stop.
> >
> >No, he was right.  They can't prove that their system is unbreakable.
> >They _might_ be able to prove that their system hasn't been broken, and
> >they _might_ be able to prove that it is _unlikely_ that it will be, but
> >they *CAN NOT* prove that it is unbreakable.  This is the nature of
> >cryptosystems.
> 
> Please prove your assertion.
> 
> If you can't prove this, and you can't find anybody else who has, why
> should we believe it?

Prove it?  Thats like saying "prove that the sun is bright on a sunny
day".  Its completely obvious.  If somebody has a new idea on how to
attack their algorithm, it might work.  Then the system will have been
broken.  You never know when somebody will come up with a new idea, so the
best you can truthfully say is "it hasn't been broken *YET*".  As I
remember, this was mentioned in more than one respected crypto book,
including "Applied Cryptography" (Schneier).

> diGriz

 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

"All in all is all we are."
		-- Kurt Cobain


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMphlZjCdEh3oIPAVAQF6xQf+Is1KFSNZQexVQeCP6eDywN8Zv4iuUVX4
xmzzwNrziDO5rKZk1o6ol4G7oEk4EBi9OQOSC9ph12USjMYNLuqZGKcTSRlhgnb7
Jd9llDxpGlITI8omeYVGxlClUgwNYdudKVTCcpsElF4bR2uY066J9uyWeJIUhL13
F7cc+SD6iBtYOaGudAMheEaW+wzM4kcgSiNFWO6rDkU3LKNlqg2LEcjeZGIW8QQh
nxD06NKm807Cue/EiPYxwJmoQHFlZ5VjCkONj8GCgayBLUkJXIK6JIexQg9BS/Bx
RlV38j0OcCbtyzm4xcF+jEcNO6+7rrUC6TSW07k5jyjZXik/K6lZ/Q==
=M1Yr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The Deviant wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> 
> > 
> > At 6:56 PM 11/23/1996, The Deviant wrote:
> > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> > >> The good news is that you can prove a negative.  For example, it has
> > >> been proven that there is no algorithm which can tell in all cases
> > >> whether an algorithm will stop.
> > >
> > >No, he was right.  They can't prove that their system is unbreakable.
> > >They _might_ be able to prove that their system hasn't been broken, and
> > >they _might_ be able to prove that it is _unlikely_ that it will be, but
> > >they *CAN NOT* prove that it is unbreakable.  This is the nature of
> > >cryptosystems.
> > 
> > Please prove your assertion.
> > 
> > If you can't prove this, and you can't find anybody else who has, why
> > should we believe it?
> 
> Prove it?  Thats like saying "prove that the sun is bright on a sunny
> day".  Its completely obvious.  If somebody has a new idea on how to
> attack their algorithm, it might work.  Then the system will have been
> broken.  You never know when somebody will come up with a new idea, so the
> best you can truthfully say is "it hasn't been broken *YET*".  As I
> remember, this was mentioned in more than one respected crypto book,
> including "Applied Cryptography" (Schneier).

It seems appropriate to quote Schneier on the subject:

"Those who claim to have an unbreakable cipher simply because they can't break
it are either geniuses or fools. Unfortunately, there are more of the latter in
the world."

And...

"Believe it or not, there is a perfect encryption system. It's called a
one-time pad..."

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
Ben Laurie                Phone: +44 (181) 994 6435  Email: ben@algroup.co.uk
Freelance Consultant and  Fax:   +44 (181) 994 6472
Technical Director        URL: http://www.algroup.co.uk/Apache-SSL
A.L. Digital Ltd,         Apache Group member (http://www.apache.org)
London, England.          Apache-SSL author

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Ben Laurie wrote:

> The Deviant wrote:
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > 
> > On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > At 6:56 PM 11/23/1996, The Deviant wrote:
> > > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> > > >> The good news is that you can prove a negative.  For example, it has
> > > >> been proven that there is no algorithm which can tell in all cases
> > > >> whether an algorithm will stop.
> > > >
> > > >No, he was right.  They can't prove that their system is unbreakable.
> > > >They _might_ be able to prove that their system hasn't been broken, and
> > > >they _might_ be able to prove that it is _unlikely_ that it will be, but
> > > >they *CAN NOT* prove that it is unbreakable.  This is the nature of
> > > >cryptosystems.
> > > 
> > > Please prove your assertion.
> > > 
> > > If you can't prove this, and you can't find anybody else who has, why
> > > should we believe it?
> > 
> > Prove it?  Thats like saying "prove that the sun is bright on a sunny
> > day".  Its completely obvious.  If somebody has a new idea on how to
> > attack their algorithm, it might work.  Then the system will have been
> > broken.  You never know when somebody will come up with a new idea, so the
> > best you can truthfully say is "it hasn't been broken *YET*".  As I
> > remember, this was mentioned in more than one respected crypto book,
> > including "Applied Cryptography" (Schneier).
> 
> It seems appropriate to quote Schneier on the subject:
> 
> "Those who claim to have an unbreakable cipher simply because they can't break
> it are either geniuses or fools. Unfortunately, there are more of the latter in
> the world."
>
I cannot argue with that, obviously he is correct.
> 
> And...
> 
> "Believe it or not, there is a perfect encryption system. It's called a
> one-time pad..."
> 
Paul Bradley and others believe that you can brute force One Time Pads.
Of course, you cannot and neither can you brute force our system. It is
mathematically impossible as we have expounded on at length in past
postings.

With Kindest regards,

Don Wood

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 30 Nov 1996 wichita@cyberstation.net wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Ben Laurie wrote:
> 
> > The Deviant wrote:
> > > 
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > At 6:56 PM 11/23/1996, The Deviant wrote:
> > > > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, John Anonymous MacDonald wrote:
> > > > >> The good news is that you can prove a negative.  For example, it has
> > > > >> been proven that there is no algorithm which can tell in all cases
> > > > >> whether an algorithm will stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >No, he was right.  They can't prove that their system is unbreakable.
> > > > >They _might_ be able to prove that their system hasn't been broken, and
> > > > >they _might_ be able to prove that it is _unlikely_ that it will be, but
> > > > >they *CAN NOT* prove that it is unbreakable.  This is the nature of
> > > > >cryptosystems.
> > > > 
> > > > Please prove your assertion.
> > > > 
> > > > If you can't prove this, and you can't find anybody else who has, why
> > > > should we believe it?
> > > 
> > > Prove it?  Thats like saying "prove that the sun is bright on a sunny
> > > day".  Its completely obvious.  If somebody has a new idea on how to
> > > attack their algorithm, it might work.  Then the system will have been
> > > broken.  You never know when somebody will come up with a new idea, so the
> > > best you can truthfully say is "it hasn't been broken *YET*".  As I
> > > remember, this was mentioned in more than one respected crypto book,
> > > including "Applied Cryptography" (Schneier).
> > 
> > It seems appropriate to quote Schneier on the subject:
> > 
> > "Those who claim to have an unbreakable cipher simply because they can't break
> > it are either geniuses or fools. Unfortunately, there are more of the latter in
> > the world."
> >
> I cannot argue with that, obviously he is correct.
> > 
> > And...
> > 
> > "Believe it or not, there is a perfect encryption system. It's called a
> > one-time pad..."
> > 
> Paul Bradley and others believe that you can brute force One Time Pads.
> Of course, you cannot and neither can you brute force our system. It is
> mathematically impossible as we have expounded on at length in past
> postings.
> 
> With Kindest regards,
> 
> Don Wood
> 

The closest anybody has come to mathematically proving anything about the
IPG algorithm was what you just said, which is nothing.  "It has been
proven" and "we have posted proof" are neither mathematical nor proof.


 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

It would be illogical to assume that all conditions remain stable.
                -- Spock, "The Enterprise Incident", stardate 5027.3


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMqEenzCdEh3oIPAVAQENdgf+KaWnvbuaJ9cNruJCSWV9n32/YOsOZwyJ
HhRLUCrDDhzxMPTOkxmj749qt/mIruOFVjMHBz8bIdnzY43Q16Tt3LTC6cII8pvA
i45R4OLnpG6zmKK+/w2/ewMhdpEL5P8f1Pjlzl3VhBqpriC7S22VIhSrc+gA1WTD
z9UwJDtt3w54i3P74r+n8HFWjN8pI/Mu3S6og1rPytavxf/xlEmnTjEA/bEKEq36
3DSNgLBC7dslm/qvc7UKghKBPhPFGc3LiYGdWamTO2YPtn4+rHb8ObGG+Gy441ZC
fFngIJ8T8cTWEDqEQtkdQrkxuBRueomUsKRygJjpw9it4+wTN7OjKQ==
=nR5o
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Ben Laurie wrote:

> It seems appropriate to quote Schneier on the subject:
> 
> "Those who claim to have an unbreakable cipher simply because they can't break
> it are either geniuses or fools. Unfortunately, there are more of the latter in
> the world."
> 

Thanks (I still can't afford a cp to quote from)

> And...
> 
> "Believe it or not, there is a perfect encryption system. It's called a
> one-time pad..."
> 

Ahh... an OTP isn't unbreakable.  Its just so encredibly breakable that
you never know which break was the correct one ;)

> Cheers,
> 
> Ben.
> 

 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

The only constant is change.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBMpjM7TCdEh3oIPAVAQGGEgf+Od+v0JWudWMXE2aOTjc4boMaexa7cMwx
D1fpO/s07jmMmhtT/gK0f1vw1+hxD3tAvhZniFYaGjmCiWFJK3l/kM/K6a8JPnev
6GhHLxGue9YDJm2uRtWjWMne179OxmWkv7kywM5L3f7/llQ83Q8AegG89s+BKgvb
Hf5/kvI4aTO7eJ1XRzbN6SUfWJm69raQcHPWVP626yZ8MSFBcCx+Cc5E3heFYePf
dxps/e5inAvqPlbY1EtkLfdvMk+FAJBzoUURvKYxLsf2vvVQ9CuPqfP4oRfjRCsv
f+3EMVNCWJ3lPUOEGU05T5yDPema8sX9gnrpDOf1y9+8v5jcphOMqg==
=kqPj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The Deviant wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Ben Laurie wrote:
> > And...
> > 
> > "Believe it or not, there is a perfect encryption system. It's called a
> > one-time pad..."
> > 
> 
> Ahh... an OTP isn't unbreakable.  Its just so encredibly breakable that
> you never know which break was the correct one ;)

Note that Schneier says "perfect", not "unbreakable".

Cheers,

Ben.

-- 
Ben Laurie                Phone: +44 (181) 994 6435  Email: ben@algroup.co.uk
Freelance Consultant and  Fax:   +44 (181) 994 6472
Technical Director        URL: http://www.algroup.co.uk/Apache-SSL
A.L. Digital Ltd,         Apache Group member (http://www.apache.org)
London, England.          Apache-SSL author