RE: Re: wealth and property rights

From:	MX%"dave@kachina.jetcafe.org" 22-NOV-1996 00:41:58.20
To:	MX%"aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk"
CC:	MX%"freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org",MX%"cypherpunks@toad.com"
Subj:	Re: wealth and property rights

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To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk>
CC: freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: wealth and property rights
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:35:49 -0800
From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
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> Btw, people of your mentality (communists/socialists) already make it
> very difficult for me to accumulate, due to the exhorbitant tax rates
> to support those who chose to blow their money as soon as they have
> it

I don't necessarily want to support "socialism" nor "capitalism". Both
are extremes of a situation which does no one any good to exist. 

However, I would question the implication that "socialists" are
responsible for the higher tax rates you currently experience.  

For example, I could make a strong case that you really have some
clever "capitalists" who have learned how to express their
"capitalism" quite effectively across the space of all people in a
"country".

8-)
------
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet

         It is the wise bird who builds his nest in a tree.

In <009ABBF7.ACB06A80.64@SPRUCE.HSU.EDU>, on 11/22/96 
   at 12:18 PM, jc105558@spruce.hsu.edu said:

>> Btw, people of your mentality (communists/socialists) already make it
>> very difficult for me to accumulate, due to the exhorbitant tax rates
>> to support those who chose to blow their money as soon as they have
>> it

>I don't necessarily want to support "socialism" nor "capitalism". Both
>are extremes of a situation which does no one any good to exist. 

>However, I would question the implication that "socialists" are
>responsible for the higher tax rates you currently experience.  

>For example, I could make a strong case that you really have some clever
>"capitalists" who have learned how to express their
>"capitalism" quite effectively across the space of all people in a
>"country".

What a crock!!

socialist/communist are theifs; plain & simple. They beleive they have the
right to steal from one to give to another. 

capitalists beleive in an exchange in property/services at a rate the
market will bare.

socialists example: You have somthing I want/need & I am going to take it
from you.

capitalists example: You have somthing I want/need what can I give you in
exchange.

socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a
free & volintary exchange.

why is this so hard to understand??

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com>
-----------------------------------------------------------

William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    at 12:18 PM, jc105558@spruce.hsu.edu said:

[snippo]

> socialist/communist are theifs; plain & simple. They beleive they have the
> right to steal from one to give to another.
> capitalists beleive in an exchange in property/services at a rate the
> market will bare.
> socialists example: You have somthing I want/need & I am going to take it
> from you.
> capitalists example: You have somthing I want/need what can I give you in
> exchange.
> socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a
> free & volintary exchange.

Close, but the cigar doesn't burn long enough.  Capitalism, as said by
one who knows, is as much an enemy (well, almost) of Free Enterprise as
is Socialism, due to Capitalism rewarding monopolies as they do, with
their Golden Parachutes et al discouraging real investment on the part
of most corporate "leaders".

Just don't confuse "Free Trade" with "Free Enterprise".

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...snip...]

> socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a
> free & volintary exchange.

No.  Some systems are based on coercion, some are based on freedom.  This is a
completely different issue from whether a system is based on sharing or
hoarding...  As several people have been trying to explain to you, there are
really _two_ axes at work here.  (Something, for all my differences with its
authors, the `Libertarian Test' shows quite well)  One the one hand, some ssytems
are statist while others are anarchistic/librtarian.  On the other hand, some
systems are based on individual ownership, while others are based on communal
cooperation.  These axes are completely independent.

In a statist system, it doesn't matter whether you call yourself a `socialism' or
a `capitalism' -- the state can only preserve itself through theft and brutality.

On the other hand, in a free system, you would have the option of pursuing
capitalism, hoarding goods to trade with those of similar beliefs, while those who,
as myself, believe that more can be accomplished by pooling efforts and resources
would be free to work toward such a community.  Surely you do not find socialism
so frightening that you would deny us the right to seek it _for_ourselves_...

> why is this so hard to understand??

Because it is a gross oversimplification based on a misunderstanding of the basic
issues at stake...

--
				Jim Wise
				System Administrator
				GSAPP, Columbia University
				jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu
				http://www.arch.columbia.edu/~jim
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