Re: The Utility of Privacy

At 4:11 AM 11/17/1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:22:33 -0800
>> From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
>> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
>> Subject: The Utility of Privacy
>> 
>> 
>> Privacy is a hassle.  Is it worth it?
>> 
>> Which unfortunate situations does privacy prevent?  What are the odds
>> that they will occur?  How much effort will it take to prevent these
>> outcomes?  As a model, use the present and future situation of a
>> typical reader of this list.
>
>Insurance is a hassle.  Is it worth it?
>
>Which unfortunate situations does insurance prevent?  What are the odds
>that they will occur?  How much effort will it take to prevent these
>outcomes?  As a model, use the present and future situation of a
>typical reader of this list.

I know many people who were happy they had insurance due to car
accidents, health problems, or whatever.  What is more, the odds of
these events are carefully calculated and available.  Call an actuary.

Are there similar sources of information calculating privacy risk?  I
don't think so.

Informally, I don't know anybody who has suffered due to a loss of
privacy.

It may be the case that it is politically beneficial to have a society
of privacy fanatics.  But, this is different from the direct benefit
to each participant.

My question remains unanswered, probably because privacy isn't worth
the effort.

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In <199611171612.IAA01572@mailmasher.com>, on 11/17/96 at 12:12 PM,
   nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) said:

>I know many people who were happy they had insurance due to car
>accidents, health problems, or whatever.  What is more, the odds of
>these events are carefully calculated and available.  Call an actuary.

>Are there similar sources of information calculating privacy risk?  I
>don't think so.

>Informally, I don't know anybody who has suffered due to a loss of
>privacy.

>It may be the case that it is politically beneficial to have a society
>of privacy fanatics.  But, this is different from the direct benefit
>to each participant.

>My question remains unanswered, probably because privacy isn't worth
>the effort.

Well I can give you a couple of examples from personel "suffering" from loss of privacy:

#1. While living in KC I had a co-worker obtain my SS# which he then used to have all his
utilities put in my name. (Utility companies only asked for SS#, Name & Place of
employment). I did not find this out until 9mo. later when I went to have utilities turned
on in my new house. (I was previously living in an apartment which utilities were included
in the rent). It took several months, an attorny & many calls to the utility board to get
the mess straightend out.

#2. The Ill. State Police got my name cross-referenced with a convicted fellon in thier
computer system. Didn't find this one out until I needed to get my security clearance
renewed for a contract. Needless to say the client was not pleased. This took over a year
to get straightend out and god only knows how many other computer systems still has me
listed as a convicted car theif. Funniest part is that while this guy was rotting in jail
I was living overseas.

It is all too easy today with the current state of computer & information technology to
get f***ed. Needless to say I take my privacy much more seriously than I did before.

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Forgive me if I missed it, but there seems to have been little
discussion of the link between privacy and identity in this thread.
(The list is so noisy that I miss a lot of things.)

On most computer systems, one's identity is represented by some
secret, whether it's a login password or a private key.  Obviously, to
maintain the integrity of the identity the secret must be protected
which requires privacy.

Now whether or not I have "something to hide", I very much want to
protect my identity from being usurped.  (He who steals my purse
steals trash...)

Now is it the case that people are interested in stealing identities?
Certainly.  My account on the CMU Andrew system (where this is being
written) was compromised once.  Not out of any animosity toward me,
but simply as a platform to launch a hacking attack on some other
system.  (Universities, and I suspect other networks, are rife with
packet sniffers.  Having been burned once, I rely tremendously on
encrypted connections.)

This is not to say that one's identity-secret is the only secret worth
protecting.  But I thought I'd mention it as something to think about.

	Mike

P.S. In a way, credit card numbers are identities --- the fact that we
just hand them out to people is very disconcerting.  (I'm told that
most credit card fraud is by vendors.)

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:

> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 08:12:12 -0800
> From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: The Utility of Privacy
> 
> 
> At 4:11 AM 11/17/1996, Black Unicorn wrote:
> >On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:22:33 -0800
> >> From: Huge Cajones Remailer <nobody@huge.cajones.com>
> >> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> >> Subject: The Utility of Privacy
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Privacy is a hassle.  Is it worth it?
> >> 
> >> Which unfortunate situations does privacy prevent?  What are the odds
> >> that they will occur?  How much effort will it take to prevent these
> >> outcomes?  As a model, use the present and future situation of a
> >> typical reader of this list.
> >
> >Insurance is a hassle.  Is it worth it?
> >
> >Which unfortunate situations does insurance prevent?  What are the odds
> >that they will occur?  How much effort will it take to prevent these
> >outcomes?  As a model, use the present and future situation of a
> >typical reader of this list.
> 
> I know many people who were happy they had insurance due to car
> accidents, health problems, or whatever.  What is more, the odds of
> these events are carefully calculated and available.  Call an actuary.
> 
> Are there similar sources of information calculating privacy risk?  I
> don't think so.

Ah, so let's ignore the risks, on the grounds that we have no idea what
they might be, or their magnitude.  That's clever.  I like that.

> Informally, I don't know anybody who has suffered due to a loss of
> privacy.

Your circle of associations must be limited.
 
> It may be the case that it is politically beneficial to have a society
> of privacy fanatics.  But, this is different from the direct benefit
> to each participant.

Agreed, but since you do not quantify the magnitude of either of these,
even in terms of speculation, I'm not sure what your point is.

> My question remains unanswered, probably because privacy isn't worth
> the effort.

And no one can answer that question but you.  Privacy is a personal
decision.  I'm sure there are many out there who will suffer no harm even
if their SSN is published in the Wall Street Journal.

Why, however, fail to take out insurance when the cost is so low?  Really
it doesn't take much in the way of effort or money to assure one's
privacy.  (Hint: It's getting cheaper every day in some ways).

Answer: Nearly all of the cost of privacy is concentrated in set up cost.
Maintaince costs are minimal once set up has been made.  Yet getting over
that first hurdle is the biggest leap.

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