Extreme Left/Right

Sandy,

I always had trouble understanding what people meant when they used the 
terms "extreme left" and "extreme right".  Then, about 4 months ago, I
saw a guy define the "political spectrum" the way (he said) it used to be 
defined before the definitions were corrupted (by whomever wants to 
divide - and conquer - the people).  It made sense to me.  A spectrum 
afterall, at least when we're talking about colors, starts with one type 
of color and graduates to other, DIFFERENT colors.

He defined the "political spectrum" as follows:

< ------- LEFT                                                 RIGHT ------->

            Monarchy      Oligarchy      Democracy      Republic      Anarchy

Rule by:      ONE            FEW           MANY           LAW           NONE

Examples:   Dictator,     Communist,      Lynch Mob     Constitutional
            King          Fascist State                 Govt (US before
                                                        1930's)


So, according to this definition of the political spectrum, a true 
"leftist" would be a person that supported the government's usurpation of 
individual rights, property rights, human rights, privacy rights, etc.  
Obviously we don't look at it this way.  The government only takes away 
our property (eg. through income taxes), etc. when it's FOR OUR OWN 
GOOD AND THE GOOD OF OUR COUNTRYMEN!!!

Sadly, this can only be done (in this country) by violating the US 
Constitution, and it has been done and it is being done.  

Unfortuneately, the people that support and seek to defend the Constitution 
(according to the political spectrum you see above) are on the right 
(those that support the Republic).  It's not politically correct to call 
yourself a "rightist" these days.  

Of course, there are not too many Americans (including people that call
themselves "leftists" or "liberals") that are willing to publicly admit
that they are opposed to the US Constitution.  I dare say that most 
leftists would actually say that they SUPPORT the US Constitution.  Many
of these people are very concerned about the deterioration of our 
liberties and spend a lot of time and energy educating themselves and 
others about how this is being done.  I know this because I used to 
consider myself a "leftist" (although I was never too fond of applying 
such labels to myself); after all, I had to be SOMEWHERE!!!  My political 
"education" started during the Reagan years.  Since that administration 
was considered "right-wing", I knew I didn't like that (because of the 
BAD things that it was doing) so I must be the opposite.

When I used to listen to a certain "leftist" radio station broadcasting 
out of New York City, they would talk about "left-wing", communist 
dictatorships and "right-wing", fascist dictatorships.  A dictatorship is 
a dictatorship!!!  The "wing" that it comes from makes no difference!!  The 
way the media defines these things makes no sense; you can't have a 
dictatorship on BOTH sides of a POLITICAL SPECTRUM no more than you can 
have YELLOW on both sides of the COLOR SPECTRUM.

Maybe I'm totally wrong in my thinking.  If I am please try to clarify 
things for me.

I bring this to your attention only because I notice that you often use 
these terms in some of your e-mails.

I think that most "leftists" and "rightists" want many of the same 
things.  We can't get together because the language we use has been so 
corrupted.  


Sincerely,

Jim.

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James Ormond <jimo@astea.com> writes:
<snip>
> He defined the "political spectrum" as follows:
> 
> < ------- LEFT                                                 RIGHT ------->
> 
>             Monarchy      Oligarchy      Democracy      Republic      Anarchy
> 
> Rule by:      ONE            FEW           MANY           LAW           NONE
> 
> Examples:   Dictator,     Communist,      Lynch Mob     Constitutional
>             King          Fascist State                 Govt (US before
>                                                         1930's)

I prefer the 2 dimentional spectrum (the libretarians tend to push
this) that l;ooks more like this:

                (fucking) Statist



           Left                   Right



                   Anarchist

The statist-anarchist (the lidretarians use "libretarian" instead of
"anarchist") scale is dependant on the centralization of power, and the
left-right scale has to do with the amount of collectivism.

So, the extremem of leftist-statis would be a socialist monarchy
(think China), whereas leftist anarchist societies (like the commune I
lived in last summer) are also possible. To round it out, there's
right(ist? wing?) statist, like say pre-revolution France, and
right(ist/wing) anarchist, which is what most people think of as
anarchy, I guess.

As you hint at in your post, the simple right-left scale is totally
inadequate to describe political beliefs. I think that the one you're
using was created by folks who wanted to demonize leftists.

> Maybe I'm totally wrong in my thinking.  If I am please try to clarify 
> things for me.

Hope I did.

> I think that most "leftists" and "rightists" want many of the same 
> things.  We can't get together because the language we use has been so 
> corrupted.  

Yeah, personally, I'm a moderate-left anarchist. It seems to me that
most folks on this list are rightist anarchist. While our desired
furute worlds are not the same, they are completely compatible as
there is no central power to enforce an economic model on the citizen-
units. Our methods to achieving our goals are also quite similar.

Hope this helps,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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In <Pine.HPP.3.91.961118184355.23458G-100000@hpg60.astea.com>, on 11/18/96 at 09:10 PM,
   James Ormond <jimo@astea.com> said:

[snip]

>I think that most "leftists" and "rightists" want many of the same 
>things.  We can't get together because the language we use has been so 
>corrupted.  


Actually most of those today that consider themselfs on the "right" or "left" are truly
socialist/statist. They have their select group of "rights" & special intrests that they
want protected but are often willing to distroy all other rights in the process.

The debate of socialism vs. capitalism died in this country decades ago. It now has
degenerated into what flavor of statism do you want?

Either a people are free or they are not. There is no middle ground. You can't be a little
pregnant. 

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James Ormond wrote:
> Sandy,
> I always had trouble understanding what people meant when they used the
> terms "extreme left" and "extreme right".  Then, about 4 months ago, I
> saw a guy define the "political spectrum" the way (he said) it used to be
> defined before the definitions were corrupted (by whomever wants to
> divide - and conquer - the people).  It made sense to me.  A spectrum
> afterall, at least when we're talking about colors, starts with one type
> of color and graduates to other, DIFFERENT colors.

[snip]

Tell ya' something you might find amusing:  During the 1992 campaign,
when I worked for awhile for Perot The Populist, I also sent personal
letters to every right- and left-wing organization I could find out
about (a couple thousand orgs and individuals), and I kept track of the
responses.

My records indicated that the orgs and individuals identified closely
with the *Right* were twice as responsive as those on the *Left*, and
easily ten times as friendly.  There's something to be said about the
down-home sincerity of those folks in small-town America, as opposed to
the ruthless, cynical people who mostly populate the left-wing positions
of influence today in big cities.

Of course, if the Right were to seize power from the Left today (i.e.,
take over newpapers, TV, and so on), what I've described might shift
a bit.

On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:10:53 -0500 (EST), you wrote:

:
:Sandy,
:
:I always had trouble understanding what people meant when they used the 
:terms "extreme left" and "extreme right".  Then, about 4 months ago, I
:saw a guy define the "political spectrum" the way (he said) it used to be 
:defined before the definitions were corrupted (by whomever wants to 
:divide - and conquer - the people).  It made sense to me.  A spectrum 
:afterall, at least when we're talking about colors, starts with one type 
:of color and graduates to other, DIFFERENT colors.
:
:He defined the "political spectrum" as follows:
:
:< ------- LEFT                                                 RIGHT ------->
:
:            Monarchy      Oligarchy      Democracy      Republic      Anarchy
:
:Rule by:      ONE            FEW           MANY           LAW           NONE
:
:Examples:   Dictator,     Communist,      Lynch Mob     Constitutional
:            King          Fascist State                 Govt (US before
:                                                        1930's)

You forgot the property situation under each.

Anarchy: (IMO belongs left of monarchy, just to keep it mathematical)
           Ownership and distribution of product of ownership
              controlled by the strongest mob.

Monarchy:  Ownership by the one. Privileged few allowed to make use of
              it.

Oligarchy:
           Communist: No private ownership. Distribution of product by
              the state.
           Fascist: Private ownership allowed. Distribution of product
              by the state.

Democracy: Ownership and distribution by the loudest mob.

Republic:  Private ownership and private determination of
              distribution.
            (Major paradigm shift in governance - away from whims of
              one/few/many *people* to *objective laws*.) 
                  NOTE: Key word here is *objective* - not law. Whims
                        are subjective.

--
Pat McCotter
Finger patm@connix.com for PGP Public Key
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