Re: Does John Gilmore...

At 08:37 AM 11/16/96 -0800, Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> wrote:

[snip]
>I have a suggestion for "Aga" and others who believe this sort of
>nonsense.  Please do us all a favor and try to sue John.  I'm sure 
>that among all jack-leg and wannabe lawyers on this list that they
>can come up with a viable cause of action.  And John has deep 
>pockets; you could (literally) make out like bandits AND rescue 
>"freedom of speech" on privately maintained mailing lists. 

Such a case would obviously fail.  John has the right to ban anyone he
wants from a list that he is hosting.

I do question, though, whether or not it was the best way to handle the
situation.  As I have argued, the availability of end-user filtering made
banning Dimitri from the list unnecessary, IMHO.  And the list owner giving
people the boot sure doesn't fit with the picture I have had of what
cypherpunks was about.  YMMV.

I think that John is doing a lot of great things for crypto (his
participation in the Bernstein case, S/WAN, etc.) and I agree with at least
90% of the things I see him doing.  I think he made the wrong call with
Dimitri, though.

>You 
>could be heroes (or look ten times as foolish as you already do).

Actually, if John was trying to cut down on the noise by banning the Kook,
I think it's backfired.  It seems like there is even more irrational
chatter now...


Rich

--
Rich Burroughs
richieb@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/

Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com> writes:

 > I think that John is doing a lot of great things for crypto
 > (his participation in the Bernstein case, S/WAN, etc.) and I
 > agree with at least 90% of the things I see him doing.  I
 > think he made the wrong call with Dimitri, though.

Banning Dimitri was a really dumb thing to do.  The list is
archived practically in real time on the Web and anyone can post
whether or not they are subscribed, not to mention the
availability of anonymous remailers, with which Cypherpunks is
closely associated.

So we had a unilaterial act, which was completely unenforcable,
that made us all look like a bunch of clueless hypocrites in the
process and filled the list with yet another pointless flame war.

Indeed, we have here another classic example of not quite
grasping the issues involved, much like what we see on a regular
basis from the EFF as they merrily capitulate right and left with
Congressrodents on bills most Cypherpunks find unacceptable. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $

Rich Burroughs <richieb@teleport.com> writes:
> >I have a suggestion for "Aga" and others who believe this sort of
> >nonsense.  Please do us all a favor and try to sue John.  I'm sure
> >that among all jack-leg and wannabe lawyers on this list that they
> >can come up with a viable cause of action.  And John has deep
> >pockets; you could (literally) make out like bandits AND rescue
> >"freedom of speech" on privately maintained mailing lists.
>
> Such a case would obviously fail.  John has the right to ban anyone he
> wants from a list that he is hosting.

Sure he does - I've been saying all along that John Gilmore has the right to
act dishonorably, which he exercises. Yet the censorship supporters keep
attributing to me the diametrically opposite view - that the state can force
John to carry even the opinions he disagrees with. This is not what I've been
saying, of course. John Gilmore lied when he attributed this opinion to me (as
quoted by Declan McCulough). Only his honor could force him to do that, but he
has no honor and no credibility. John had the right to exercise censorship on
his private mailing list, which is precisely what he did.

> I do question, though, whether or not it was the best way to handle the
> situation.  As I have argued, the availability of end-user filtering made
> banning Dimitri from the list unnecessary, IMHO.  And the list owner giving
> people the boot sure doesn't fit with the picture I have had of what
> cypherpunks was about.  YMMV.

Same here - I used to have respect for John Gilmore, but now I don't.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps