Re: Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!

William H. Geiger III <whgiii@amaranth.com> wrote:

> Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!

> Dorthy Denning gave the most pro-government speech I have ever
> heard. Is this clueless bitch on the government payroll?!!

Spelling please!  "Dorothy".  She is a US academic.

It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be
evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents.

I did not see the testimony, so I can't comment on it.

However I believe that Dorothy Denning is motivated as much as many of
us by the desire for a healthy society.  The sharp difference in
crypto policy can probably be explained by a differing understanding
of:

1 - The likely behaviour of professional criminals, normal people,
    government officials and criminal government officials in the
    future with various forms of crypto system.

2 - Different levels of trust and fear regarding crime in general,
    big-time crime in particular and the use and abuse of law 
    enforcement and other government powers.

3 - Probably other things too.


I think that there are different personality types at work here. 
Adding to that is the tendency for governments to employ people who
generally trust governments, their desire to perpetuate their former
abilities to detect and deter crime and especially the problem of
*groupthink*.

Groupthink is the tendency for like minded individuals to reject
uncomfortable notions, and so develop a seriously inadequate
understanding of reality.

JFK admitted they were stupid to commence the Bay of Pigs invasion. 
Clinton will probably say the same thing about crypto export controls.

There is clear evidence that, being surrounded by like minded 
advisers, both presidents were the victims of groupthink.

If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!"
then we too are succumbing to groupthink.

See:

   http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr/crypto/oecd_dr.htm

for Dorothy Denning's response to my challenge for justifying costs of
key-escrow/recovery against the likely benefit in crime reduction. I
don't think it is a very strong response, and while many on this list
will know more about her than I do, her response does not strike me as
the work of someone who is unintelligent, uninterested in the future
of society or a fascist.

The net result of various misunderstandings (such as Clinton and Co.
must have about the freely available nature of strong crypto) may well
be stupidity on a grand scale.

There are personality types who lean away from privacy and towards
dangerous levels of government control.  I think this can be amplified
by the circumstances in which these people work - and groupthink is a
big part of that.  

oecd_dr.htm is a recent draft of some OECD crypto work, with my
comments, especially concerning the likely behaviour of criminals
communicating both with other criminals and with non-criminals.  It
also has some information on an essay by Irving L. Janis called "Group
Think" which I recommend to everyone who is involved in policy
debates.

- Robin





. Robin Whittle                                               .
. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr   firstpr@ozemail.com.au .
. 11 Miller St. Heidelberg Heights 3081 Melbourne Australia   .
. Ph +61-3-9459-2889    Fax +61-3-9458-1736                   .
. Consumer advocacy in telecommunications, especially privacy .
.                                                             .
. First Principles      - Research and expression - music,    .
.                         music industry, telecommunications  .
.                         human factors in technology adoption.
.                                                             .
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.                         for music                           .

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In message <199611271154.WAA26338@oznet02.ozemail.com.au>, Robin Whittle writes
:
>It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be
>evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents.

	Indeed, making a habit calling anyone who disagrees with your
stance leads to kneejerk behaviour, like that which is probably behind
key-escrow (and the CDA, but that's not the point).

>If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!"
>then we too are succumbing to groupthink.

	Good point and a thoughtful post too!

	Derek

Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie                | "Donuts - is there _anything_
WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html|        they can't do?"
PGPkey: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/key.asc|        - Homer Simpson



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> From: Robin Whittle
>
> > Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
>
> It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be
> evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents.
> [SNIP]
> If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!"
> then we too are succumbing to groupthink.

I must commend Robin for a well-said comment.

It is truly counter-productive to insist on conspiracy theories and
anti-government rhetoric.  Sure, there have been conspiracies in the
past.  Sure, there have been more than our fair share of atrocities.

However, the real issues are privacy, security, freedom of speech, and
effective policy enforcement.  When we start calling names like "jack
booted thugs" and the like, we are sinking to the same low levels that
Freeh and (more appropriately) Gorelick use when they cry wolf and
foretell futuristic electronic meltdowns.

More importantly, while the public is cynical and skeptical, it isn't
exactly embracing the right-wing militia movements either.  It would
be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds
of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.

Ern

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In <199611272000.MAA18790@server1.chromatic.com>, on 11/27/96 at 04:00 PM,
   Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> said:


>> From: Robin Whittle
>>
>> > Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
>>
>> It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be
>> evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents.
>> [SNIP]
>> If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!"
>> then we too are succumbing to groupthink.

>I must commend Robin for a well-said comment.

>It is truly counter-productive to insist on conspiracy theories and
>anti-government rhetoric.  Sure, there have been conspiracies in the
>past.  Sure, there have been more than our fair share of atrocities.

>However, the real issues are privacy, security, freedom of speech, and
>effective policy enforcement.  When we start calling names like "jack
>booted thugs" and the like, we are sinking to the same low levels that
>Freeh and (more appropriately) Gorelick use when they cry wolf and
>foretell futuristic electronic meltdowns.

>More importantly, while the public is cynical and skeptical, it isn't
>exactly embracing the right-wing militia movements either.  It would
>be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds
>of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.

Not at all. We need more people shouting from the mountain tops at what are governments
are doing.

We are not as free as we were 10yrs ago. We are not as free as we were 100yrs ago. Hell we
are not as free as we were under King George over 200yrs. ago!!

The issue of cryptology is only one area of attack on our freedoms. Just one small piece
in the Big Picture. Below are some of the some of the trends we have to look forward to:

National ID's:
- --------------

All citizens will be required to be registered with the state. The state will require any
changes in address.

The administration tried this once already with their failed "health care" plan.

Tracking of movement of all citizens:
- -------------------------------------

Experiments on this is going on right now with cellular phones that transmit location of
cars. (actually the phones just send out a signal and the receivers triangulate on them).

Also "alarm" systems that can be activated by police to transmit location of vehicles.
(same principal as above).

Display of documentation for all Public transport:
- --------------------------------------------------

The Airlines are just a start.

It should be noted that it is only a matter of time before travel permits are required.

Display of documentation for Employment:
- ----------------------------------------

Got to get those nasty Illegals.

hmmm... How long before the right to work is considered a privilege?


Electronic Cash:
- ----------------

Paper & Coin money will be eliminated. Everyone will have their Debit cards in which all
transactions will be recorded. This is currently being done with Credit Cards.

IMHO anonymous e-cash will not survive government control.


Automated Drift-Net Fishing of Phone conversations:
- ---------------------------------------------------

With the continued advance in Voice Recognition the police forces will soon put this
technology to use. A prime example is the Fbi's request for the ability to tap 1% of all
lines. The FBI has nowhere the staff or budget to make use of this many taps. They only
way such a system is feasible is with automated systems searching for key words/phrases.

Federal Thought Crimes:
- -----------------------

Currently certain types of "political incorrect" speach are Illegal.

As distasteful as the word "Niggar" is I don't not consider it a crime to say it
regardless of how offensive it may be. Any while telling dirty jokes in front of one's
secretary may not be polite I don't consider that illegal either. Will doing either of
these will get you nailed on civil rights violations & sexual harassment charges.

Others are treated as illegal even if not formally so.

Bill Clinton after the Oklahoma bombings tried blaming "Rush Limbaugh" for the incident.
Rush's crime?? Being opposed to the political party in power at the time. 


Internet Drift-Net Fishing:
- ---------------------------

Much simpler than the phone lines as everything is already in text (e-mail).


GAK (THE BIG LIE):
- ------------------

In all the Clipper proposals from the government it has always been said that it would be
a voluntary system. This is the BIG LIE. For GAK to have a chance of working it must have
the following qualities:

1) Mandatory.

2) All other forms of encryption must be made illegal.

3) Must be global.

The administration is hard at work on #3 by putting pressure on its trading partners to go
the GAK way. #1 & #2 wouldn't be made public policy until the infrastructure is in place.
The EFF has recovered some documents through the Freedom of Information Act that state
just that (what wasn't blocked out).


Loss of property rights:
- ------------------------

A couple of months ago Bill Clinton by Presidential Order STOLE over 1 million acres of
land. This land contained some of the richest, low sulfur, coal fields in the country. 




Now you criticize me for not playing nice with people who either through deliberate
planning or ignorance aid and abet the above policies?? Sorry but I will not. I am not a
sheep & I will not lay down and be slaughtered.

Now I am not calling for out & out anarchy but neither will I support or condone those who
so blatantly disregard the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and basic human rights &
dignities.


I was born a free man, in charge of my destiny, with inalienable right endowed by my
creator. I will not be made a slave of the state but will fight and die a free man.


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    WebExplorer & Java Enhanced!!!
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Author of PGPMR2 - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice

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On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> We are not as free as we were 10yrs ago. We are not as free as we were 100yrs ago. Hell we
> are not as free as we were under King George over 200yrs. ago!!

If you honestly believe that we are less free than when trained and payed
soldiers of the British army lived in the homes of unpaid, untrained
American colonists in order to keep the colonists from working against the
government, then you *REALLY* need to review your outlook on your life,
and of history.

 --Deviant
   PGP KeyID = E820F015 Fingerprint = 3D6AAB628E3DFAA9 F7D35736ABC56D39

Without followers, evil cannot spread.
                -- Spock, "And The Children Shall Lead", stardate 5029.5


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Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> writes:
>                                                             It would
> be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds
> of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.

Or Timothy C. May (fart), a clueless moron totally ignorant of cryptography.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 20:53:11 EST
> From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv@bwalk.dm.com>
> To: cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: Hurray!  A good example of rational thinking ...
> 
> Ernest Hua <hua@chromatic.com> writes:
> >                                                             It would
> > be a great disservice to the cause if cypherpunks were, in the minds
> > of the public, tightly associated with the likes of Timothy McVey.
> 
> Or Timothy C. May (fart), a clueless moron totally ignorant of cryptography.

I suppose I'm an idiot for asking.

But could you please knock it off?

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