Re: Dr. Vulis

As I put on my flame resistant suit...

IMHO, most of the posts about John Gilmore's action re: Dr. Vulis are
seriously miss-analyzing what has happened.  As far as I can tell, John
instructed his Majordomo to refuse subscription requests to cypherpunks
from Dr. Vulis.  That is all that John has done.  What John has not done
is:

(1) John has not censored Dr. Vulis.  He is still free to speak to
cypherpunks by posting in the normal manner.

(2) John as not turned to the courts as some others have suggested. 
Turning to the courts would certainly not be the way a cryptoanarchist
would handle the situation.

The best paradigm I can come up with to analyze John's action is my quite
imperfect understanding of communitarian theory.  In essence,
communitarians say that there should be a level of social control between
individual rights and the forceful coercion of the state.  What John has
done is step forward and excommunicate Dr. Vulis.  He has said to Dr.
Vulis, "You are no longer a member of the cypherpunks community."

I would love to hear how people feel this action fits in to the
cryptoanarchy, libertarian utopias we frequently discuss.  E.g. Why is it
not a perfectly reasonable action for some one to take in an anarchy?


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frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) writes:
> [John Gilmore]  has said to Dr.
> Vulis, "You are no longer a member of the cypherpunks community."

I recall we've been through this over a year ago, when I saw an announcement
of a cypherpunks physical meeting where someone was excluded for his political
views, and I said that I don't consider myself a cypherpunk. I'm glad that
John and Bill, the auhorities on cypherpunk membership, finally concur.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

What is the story on this or is it more ravings?

Dan


On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) writes:
> > [John Gilmore]  has said to Dr.
> > Vulis, "You are no longer a member of the cypherpunks community."
> 
> I recall we've been through this over a year ago, when I saw an announcement
> of a cypherpunks physical meeting where someone was excluded for his political
> views, and I said that I don't consider myself a cypherpunk. I'm glad that
> John and Bill, the auhorities on cypherpunk membership, finally concur.
> 
> ---
> 
> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
> Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
>

Dan Harmon wrote:
> 
> What is the story on this or is it more ravings?
> 
> Dan
> 
> On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> > frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) writes:
> > > [John Gilmore]  has said to Dr.
> > > Vulis, "You are no longer a member of the cypherpunks community."
> >
> > I recall we've been through this over a year ago, when I saw an announcement
> > of a cypherpunks physical meeting where someone was excluded for his political
> > views, and I said that I don't consider myself a cypherpunk. I'm glad that
> > John and Bill, the auhorities on cypherpunk membership, finally concur.


I think he is referring to the explicit and public non-invite of Jim
Bell to a cypherpunks meeting, due to some of Jim Bell's Assination
Politics posts.

Gary
--
"Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better
than what we have now."  -- Unknown.

pub  1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22  Gary Howland <gary@systemics.com>
Key fingerprint =  0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D  1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06

frantz@netcom.com (Bill Frantz) writes:
> IMHO, most of the posts about John Gilmore's action re: Dr. Vulis are
> seriously miss-analyzing what has happened.  As far as I can tell, John
> instructed his Majordomo to refuse subscription requests to cypherpunks
> from Dr. Vulis.  That is all that John has done.

That's essentially correct. Apparently he a) unsubscribed me from the
list, b) instructed his Majordomo@toad.com not to respond to _any requests
from me, including "who" or "help". It might have been more polite to
instruct the Majordomo to say something like "I'm ignoring your requests
per the owner's instructions" rather than just play dead.

I recall that a couple of weeks ago Timmy May (fart) reported that someone
had forged an unsubscription request from me in _his name, which didn't work.

It took me very little time to realize what happened. I might or might
not have used that time more productively. I view John's rude actions
as those of a small-time petty bitch - a minor nuisance. It might have
been a bigger nuisance for someone less clueful.

> (1) John has not censored Dr. Vulis.  He is still free to speak to
> cypherpunks by posting in the normal manner.

I've pointed out already that apparently John is not, so far, filtering out my
submissions to the c-punks list. However I'd like to take exception with the
two claims made in the articles cc'd to me so far:

A that only governments can censor;

B that post-factum punishment for "inappropriate" speech is not censorship.

As to A, I'll quote the fat "Webster's 20 Century dictionary":

Censor, n. {l. censor, from censere, to tax, value, judge.]

1. One of the magistrates in Ancient Rome whose business was to draw up a
register of the citizens and the amount of their property, for the purposes of
taxation, and to keep watch over the morals of the citizens, for which purpose
they had power to censure vice and immorality by inflicting a public mark of
ignominy on the offender.

2. any supervisor of public morals; a person who tells people how to behave.

3. a person whose task is to examine literature, motion pictures, etc., and to
remove or prohibit anything considered unsuitable.

4. an official or military officer who reads publications, mail, etc. to remove
any information that might be useful to the enemy.

5. one who censures, blasmes, or reproved; one who is given to censure; any
faultfinder or adverse critic.

6. In English colleges and universities, an official appointed to keep the
register of all who attend, to mark those who are absent each day on meeting,
to report faults, etc.

7. in psychoanalysis, censorship.

(I guess the Internet falls under 'etc'.) I don't see working for the state
as part of the definition, except for #1, nor the prior restraint.

If I may adduce a recent example from New York City: ABC owns a radio station,
appropriately called WABC. It used to have a collection of popular talk radio
hosts. _Weeks after Disney bought ABC, it fired two (that I know of)
contraversial hosts that were not compatible with Disney's family-oriented
image: Alan Derschowitz (a liberal Harvard law school professor) and Bill Grant
(a right-winger, who immediately got a job with WOR, a New Jersey station).

Certainly Disney owned WABC and was within its rights to censor it. Likewise
John Gilmore is within his rights to destroy his own credibility and to expose
his own hypocricy. It's really a pity, since I used to respect him.

As to B, nowhere is censorship limited to prior restraint. This fallacy
reminds me of the old political joke: Any Chinaman is free to demonstrate on
Tiananmen Square and shout "Fuck Mao", but he may not remain free afterwards.

P.S. Thanks, Bill, for spelling my name correctly.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps