'what cypherpunks is about'

Tim May should learn that holding 'harsh'
and 'realistic' opinions require a little
substantiation...not ignorence and blind
scepticism.

Rather than start an argument on third world
politics and the like I'll quote two sources
that Tim and everyone else ought to check
out. These are at the end of this post.

Second, ok so cypherpunks is not about the
redistribution of wealth is it?

How many of you would agree it is about
retaining the status quo?

Cypherpunks, in my (rather simplistic)
opinion, IS about the redistribution of
power. Wealth is often seen as a subset
of power.

The people who control assets today are by and
large criminals. This is not a judgement but
a simple statement...in the past the main
form of power was violence - 'Political
power grows from the barrel of a gun.' - Mao

More gained through war, pirecy and pillage
is today seen as liliy white, by the likes
of Tim May. This is ignorence. Look closer.

Cypherpunks & crypto gives us a chance today
to 'redistribute' the power base from one
based on fear, violence etc to one based on
information...wait! I didn't say this new
power base will be more ethical than the
last...who knows? It certainly has the
potential to be...that is what cypherpunks
is about...to me! To Tim May it's about
something very different.

But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing
lasts forever.

Historically, geographic areas such as
the third world are not responsible for
their current economic climate any more
than Tim May is responsible for the economic
sucess of the US, or for that matter the
criminal acts of Nixon...who is then? Read
on MacDuff...

Read 'A Fate Worse Than Debt' - Susan George
for a popular understanding on the third
world debt crisis. This will tell you about
'countless third world deaths' and also the
extent of Citibank's involvement.

A quote:

'If I were the president of a third world
nation...I would be far more frightened
by a well dressed gentleman bringing loans
from the IMF or Citibank than by a bearded
guerrilla muttering threats of revolution.'

- Lewis Lapham, Imperial Masquerade, 1990

For an economic perspective on third world
debt read:

 'Economics for a developing world'
 - Michael P Todaro, ISBN 0-582-07136-4

Zaid Hassan
ph93szh@brunel.ac.uk

ps.sorry if this is rather harsh Tim, you
sorta annoyed me.

At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
>Mr. Hassen wrote:
>> But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing
>> lasts forever.
>
>     Yes, they are, and death does.
>
>     Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry
>and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It
>rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better
>than nothing.

We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless
trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads.

We are exploiting them.

Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with
a life expectancy of 35.


--Tim May

"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM
that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology."
[NYT, 1996-10-02]
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
> 
> We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless
> trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads.
> 
> We are exploiting them.
> 
> Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with
> a life expectancy of 35.
> 
> 
> --Tim May

What a perfectly wonderful narrow point of view. You aren't trolling
are you? I can't believe you are that naive, but perhaps it hurts too
much to see the truth, I know that it hurts me even as I remain
powerless to do anything about it.

cheers, kinch

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:

> At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Hassen wrote:
> >> But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing
> >> lasts forever.
> >
> >     Yes, they are, and death does.
> >
> >     Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry
> >and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It
> >rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better
> >than nothing.
> 
> We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless
> trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads.
> 
> We are exploiting them.
> 
> Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with
> a life expectancy of 35.
> 
> 
> --Tim May


What is the cryptographic relevance of the above-quoted piece?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Timothy C. May wrote:
> At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
> >Mr. Hassen wrote:
> >> But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever.

> > Yes, they are, and death does.

> >Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry and farming
> >to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It rarely works that
> >way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better than nothing.

> We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless trinkets
> like penicillin, schools, and roads.  We are exploiting them. Yep, they are better
> off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with a life expectancy of 35.

Since this is such a perfect example of making unfair judgements about other people's
lives (you do agree that their lives are their own, I hope), I'll add a comment:

There is nothing wrong with having a life expectancy of 35, if you grow up in a society
where the normal lifespan is 35.  To say that it's "bad", and that we "simply must"
dispense our technology upon "them" is bogus.  Sure, most techno-freaks would leap at
the chance to expand their own lifespans to, say, 200+ years (with good health), and
acquire nifty advanced techno devices as well should some unforseen advanced race or
species dispense that stuff on us.

But think about that for a minute.  You can't assume that the visitors are going to
let you just have all of that, and all you have to do is work hard and suck up to them
and you'll be rewarded, etc.

"Those people" in "those countries" are where they are not because they don't have
money and technology per se, it's because of what's in their minds.  I'll support a
neighborly approach when that's what we're talking about, but you and me aren't going
over "there" with the Boy Scouts to lend them a hand, now, are we?  No, we're going
to collect taxes and send the Government instead.

Everybody fantasizes about something for nothing, even when the fantasy is U.S. giving
"those people" something they "really need".  Fooey.

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Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> "Those people" in "those countries" are where they are not because 
> they don't have money and technology per se, it's because of what's in 
> their minds.  I'll support a neighborly approach when that's what 
> we're talking about, but you and me aren't going over "there" with the
> Boy Scouts to lend them a hand, now, are we?

Some of us do.

But anyway... what was cypherpunks about again? I've had more focused 
discussions about crypto on alt.politics.white-power. Seriously.

- -rich
 boy scout/esperanza
- ---
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Mr. Hassen wrote:
> But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing
> lasts forever.

     Yes, they are, and death does. 

     Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry
and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It 
rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better 
than nothing. 

     And yes, I do believe that those _are_ the reasons (at least on of the
reasons, others include making sure that markets are open, etc.), and no,
I don't believe in the tooth fairy. 

     I would imagine that the repayment rates (i.e. number of defaults) is 
about the same as the student loan program, and the money used about 
as wisely. This from someone who went $30,000 in debt for student loans 
to go to Art School...

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com