Logos here

Sovereign collegues,

     I am Logos. I have adopted this pseudonym to conceal my
'true name'. I want the ideas which I shall be espousing
to stand or fall on their own merits and not on the basis
of biases that my name, sex, ethnicity, etc. might otherwise
elicit. I hope my contributions to this list will be seen as
positive by most list members.
     I intend to limit my postings to only two meta-topics:
decorum and logic. In other words, the way we speak to each
other and the quality of our argumentation.

Decorum

     From time to time, I will 'call' posters on their
intemperate use of rude or provocative language. I believe
Cypherpunks should be a market place of ideas, not a forum
for egos and insults.
     The two houses of the American congress have adopted
rules of decorum. Members may be censored or expelled for
personal attacks and verbal abuse of other members. This
was mandated for a very practical reason. It was realized
that insults, profanity, 'fighting words', etc. could get so
out of hand that they could interfer with the legitimate
work of the congress. While some might say that in the case
of the congress, this would be a good thing, I believe in
the case of Cypherpunks, it is a bad thing.
     I, therefore, call upon each Cypherpunk list members to
personally adopt such a code of conduct for themselves.  If
Democrats can refer to Representative Gingrich as 'my
esteemed collegue' and Republicans can talk about the
'honorable' Ted Kennedy, I see no reason that we cannot
treat Tim May and Dimitry Vilus with similar respect and
courtesy.  What is at stake is far more important than egos.
Cypherpunks defeated Clipper, but of late they have only
defeated themselves.

Logic

     The average reader of this list has sufficient
education and intelligent to understand the most informal
logical falacies. Yet one sees such falacies committed here
with disapointing regularity. I will post definitions of the
most common falacies and will use examples found on this
list as illustrations. If we are to be persuasive among
ourselves and with others, we need to be rigorous in our
thought processes.

I would be honored to hear your thoughts on this post.

Logos out.

[Cc'ed to Bill Palmer himself. Bill, use 'Group Reply' button if you
want your replies to be seen by all participants.]

Dear LOGOS,

I suggest contacting Bill Palmer, wilhelp@ix.netcom.com. You will find
that Bill's and your opinions on many issues are very close.

Best regards to both of you,

	- Igor.

LOGOS wrote:
> 
> Sovereign collegues,
> 
>      I am Logos. I have adopted this pseudonym to conceal my
> 'true name'. I want the ideas which I shall be espousing
> to stand or fall on their own merits and not on the basis
> of biases that my name, sex, ethnicity, etc. might otherwise
> elicit. I hope my contributions to this list will be seen as
> positive by most list members.
>      I intend to limit my postings to only two meta-topics:
> decorum and logic. In other words, the way we speak to each
> other and the quality of our argumentation.
> 
> Decorum
> 
>      From time to time, I will 'call' posters on their
> intemperate use of rude or provocative language. I believe
> Cypherpunks should be a market place of ideas, not a forum
> for egos and insults.
>      The two houses of the American congress have adopted
> rules of decorum. Members may be censored or expelled for
> personal attacks and verbal abuse of other members. This
> was mandated for a very practical reason. It was realized
> that insults, profanity, 'fighting words', etc. could get so
> out of hand that they could interfer with the legitimate
> work of the congress. While some might say that in the case
> of the congress, this would be a good thing, I believe in
> the case of Cypherpunks, it is a bad thing.
>      I, therefore, call upon each Cypherpunk list members to
> personally adopt such a code of conduct for themselves.  If
> Democrats can refer to Representative Gingrich as 'my
> esteemed collegue' and Republicans can talk about the
> 'honorable' Ted Kennedy, I see no reason that we cannot
> treat Tim May and Dimitry Vilus with similar respect and
> courtesy.  What is at stake is far more important than egos.
> Cypherpunks defeated Clipper, but of late they have only
> defeated themselves.
> 
> Logic
> 
>      The average reader of this list has sufficient
> education and intelligent to understand the most informal
> logical falacies. Yet one sees such falacies committed here
> with disapointing regularity. I will post definitions of the
> most common falacies and will use examples found on this
> list as illustrations. If we are to be persuasive among
> ourselves and with others, we need to be rigorous in our
> thought processes.
> 
> I would be honored to hear your thoughts on this post.
> 
> Logos out.
> 



	- Igor.

LOGOS wrote:
> Sovereign collegues,
>      I am Logos. I have adopted this pseudonym to conceal my
> 'true name'. I want the ideas which I shall be espousing
> to stand or fall on their own merits and not on the basis
> of biases that my name, sex, ethnicity, etc. might otherwise
> elicit. I hope my contributions to this list will be seen as
> positive by most list members.
>      I intend to limit my postings to only two meta-topics:
> decorum and logic. In other words, the way we speak to each
> other and the quality of our argumentation.

[decorum snipped for space]

> Logic
> The average reader of this list has sufficient
> education and intelligent to understand the most informal
> logical falacies. Yet one sees such falacies committed here
> with disapointing regularity. I will post definitions of the
> most common falacies and will use examples found on this
> list as illustrations. If we are to be persuasive among
> ourselves and with others, we need to be rigorous in our
> thought processes.

Sounds like a heck of a good idea, if:

1. You can ID the bad logic with a high percent of success (90+ ?).

2. You can comment/reply for all members fairly, but if limited by the
   large number of postings (and fallacies ?), give priority to ???

As far as Congress expelling members, are you saying that the Senate
and/or H.O.R. can permanently eliminate a person elected by the people?
Has this ever been tested?

At 1:53 AM -0600 12/3/96, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>[Cc'ed to Bill Palmer himself. Bill, use 'Group Reply' button if you
>want your replies to be seen by all participants.]
>
>Dear LOGOS,
>
>I suggest contacting Bill Palmer, wilhelp@ix.netcom.com. You will find
>that Bill's and your opinions on many issues are very close.
>
>Best regards to both of you,
>
>	- Igor.
>
>LOGOS wrote:
>>
>> Sovereign collegues,
...

And quoting the entire article by "Logos" without even saying what it is
this mysterious Bill Palmer believes in yet another reason the list is
filling up with junk. If the message was to "LOGOS," his c2 address would
get it to him. If the message was to the rest of us, why so cryptic about
Bill Palmer? In any case, the Logos articles needed to be trimmed out.

I'm not picking on Igor...I just wish people would learn to summarize and
excerpt, and not just forward on entire quoted articles. "Your text editor
is your friend."

Someone once pointed out to me that quoting _at most_ a half screenful of
stuff is best: quoting a screenful or more before comments begin is almost
a guarantee that many people will hit the "delete" key. I try to follow
this rule of thumb, and limit my quotes accordingly.


Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> At 1:53 AM -0600 12/3/96, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >[Cc'ed to Bill Palmer himself. Bill, use 'Group Reply' button if you
> >want your replies to be seen by all participants.]
> >
> >Dear LOGOS,
> >
> >I suggest contacting Bill Palmer, wilhelp@ix.netcom.com. You will find
> >that Bill's and your opinions on many issues are very close.

I think Bill is head and shoulders above Logos.

> >Best regards to both of you,
> >
> >	- Igor.
> >
> >LOGOS wrote:
> >>
> >> Sovereign collegues,
> ...
>
> And quoting the entire article by "Logos" without even saying what it is
> this mysterious Bill Palmer believes in yet another reason the list is
> filling up with junk. If the message was to "LOGOS," his c2 address would
> get it to him. If the message was to the rest of us, why so cryptic about
> Bill Palmer? In any case, the Logos articles needed to be trimmed out.

Igor sure has better manners than Timmy, so whose cow should moo...

Anyways Bill Palmer is a really cool guy. Bill, if you care to comment
on issues of cryptoanarchy and content-based plug-pulling and are not
afraid to join a high-volume mailing list, please send this command
to majordomo@toad.com:        subscribe cypherpunks

Note that you can send contributions to cypherpunks@toad.com even if
you're not subscribed.

You can also cross-post anything you post to alt.flame to mail.cypherpunks.

Have fun - I'm looking forward to your contributions.

Thanks in advance,

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

LOGOS <logos@c2.net> writes:

> Sovereign collegues,

You already sound like a jerk.

>      I am Logos. I have adopted this pseudonym to conceal my
> 'true name'. I want the ideas which I shall be espousing
> to stand or fall on their own merits and not on the basis
> of biases that my name, sex, ethnicity, etc. might otherwise

sexual preferences...

> elicit. I hope my contributions to this list will be seen as
> positive by most list members.

Well, I'm not a list member.

> treat Tim May and Dimitry Vilus with similar respect and
> courtesy.  What is at stake is far more important than egos.
> Cypherpunks defeated Clipper, but of late they have only
> defeated themselves.

That's right. You lack the decorum to spell either my first name or
my last name correctly. "Cypher punks" are a gang of uncouth juveniles

What logic? "Cypher punks" such as Paul Bradley are incapable of
discussing a technical topic (such as Don Wood's IPG proposal) without
putting "(spit)" after Don's name and calling his algorithm "bullshit".
That's from the same person who first ranted about "brute force attacks on
one-time pads", then attributed to me various shit I never said.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps