Re: Ebonics

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At 03:02 PM 12/21/96 -0500, Mark M. wrote:
[snip]
>There is a logical correlation between intelligence and being able to follow
>English grammatical rules.

Why is it that personal freedom, sometimes expressed by choice of dialect
or language, seemingly has such arbitrary limits?  Many on the list
complain that they are subject to too many rules, and yet, seem to chime in
on multi-linugual issues in this way.

Crypto angle, here?  Much of Ebonics has been based upon a need or desire
to communicate in a private way.  "5-0" was initiated as a way to
communicate the presence of a police officer.  Surely, we are not arguing
against the development of a low-level way to scramble language.  Or in
fact, are you arguing that attempts to curtail the police should *not* be
encouraged?  This seems odd coming from some members of the list (Collapse
of Governments and all) ;-).

Matt

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At 6:06 PM -0600 12/21/96, Matthew J. Miszewski wrote:

>Why is it that personal freedom, sometimes expressed by choice of dialect
>or language, seemingly has such arbitrary limits?  Many on the list
>complain that they are subject to too many rules, and yet, seem to chime in
>on multi-linugual issues in this way.

You're confusing issues. As with similar confusions about "right to work"
(where the putative conflict is between Alice's right to hire whom she
chooses and Bob's putative "right to a job"), the confusion lies in what
one calls a right.

No one is disputing the "right" of anyone to speak in any language he or
she chooses. What the bulk of persons who have heard of the "Ebonics" story
in the last few days are doing is ridiculing it, satirizing it, shaking
their heads, and noting the backward steps it represents for so-called
"peeples of color."

Oh, and there's of course an undercurrent of "Why should taxpayers pay for
"Ebonics"?," which is hardly surprising, given that we also complain about
funding for lots of wasteful programs.

Finally, a civil libertarian would understand that any person and any
employer has the property right to not hire those he does not wish to hire.
(I speak in terms of basic rights, however one thinks they derive, not
current Kalifornia or Federal law, such as the Title VII nonsense or the
various racial quotas.)

In short, any person may speak in any language he or she wishes. I don't
have to accomodate this person, either personally or in my business. As to
_government publications_, I think this problem is solved by anarchy. Short
of anarchy, I don't see how any government larger than a truly tiny core
set can possibly pubish official documents, ballots, traffic signs,
driver's license tests, and so on, in the several dozen languages that the
basic brown types are now clamoring for.

I say fuck 'em.

>Crypto angle, here?  Much of Ebonics has been based upon a need or desire
>to communicate in a private way.  "5-0" was initiated as a way to
>communicate the presence of a police officer.  Surely, we are not arguing
>against the development of a low-level way to scramble language.  Or in
>fact, are you arguing that attempts to curtail the police should *not* be
>encouraged?  This seems odd coming from some members of the list (Collapse
>of Governments and all) ;-).

And just where did anyone in any of these posts call for outlawing any
particular language, pidgin, slang, creole, jive, or invented lingo?

Really, Matt, go back to Rhetoric 101 and learn how to argue.

(Where is "Logos" these days?)

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> _government publications_, I think this problem is solved by anarchy. Short
> of anarchy, I don't see how any government larger than a truly tiny core
> set can possibly pubish official documents, ballots, traffic signs,
> driver's license tests, and so on, in the several dozen languages that the
> basic brown types are now clamoring for.

But Tim, you've just hit on the perfect solution!  How 'bout each year the
CPunks lobby for another language to be protected?  When no law can be
passed without being first translated into over 1000 languages, lawmaking
will be impossible, and our work will be done.

Seriously, though, most of the discussion of the Ebonics issue on this list
has been based on a dangerous misconception.  At no point has _anyone_
suggested that courses be taught in Ebonics, that Ebonics be taught as a
language, or that all faculty be fluent in Ebonics.

What _has_ happened is that Ebonics has been added to the list of languages
which some students are coming into the school program speaking better than
they speak English.  Ebonics just goes alongside Spanish, several dialects
of Chinese, and a number of other languages whose native speakers may get
help from the school district in learning English.

I think this approach is foolishness, as it stigmatizes and seperates a
group who are not already cut off from the rest of the community, unlike
speakers of other designated languages.  (Unlike Laotian or Spanish, a
`native speaker' of Ebonics can understand `standard' english).  This is
a far cry from the `mandataed speaking of Ebonics' which CPunks seem so
up in arms about.  No such program exists or has existed.

At any rate, as someone already pointed out, the main reason for the
designation of Ebonics as a language is that it overnight doubled the
number of students whom Oakland can count towards federal matching funds
for ESL...

--
				Jim Wise
				jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu
				http://www.arch.columbia.edu/~jim
				* Finger for PGP public key *

<META NAME="crypto-relevance" CONTENT="0">

Jim Wise <jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu> writes:

> What _has_ happened is that Ebonics has been added to the list of languages
> which some students are coming into the school program speaking better than
> they speak English.  Ebonics just goes alongside Spanish, several dialects
> of Chinese, and a number of other languages whose native speakers may get
> help from the school district in learning English.

In NYC you see occasional signs in severely corrupted French, which is
supposed to represent the dialect spoken by the inhabitants of Haiti,
many of whom actually strive to speak "correct" French, or at least
to spell it "correctly". (Note the quotes - I have no respect for the
academy or any other authority that presumes to decide what's "correct").

> I think this approach is foolishness, as it stigmatizes and seperates a
> group who are not already cut off from the rest of the community, unlike
> speakers of other designated languages.  (Unlike Laotian or Spanish, a
> `native speaker' of Ebonics can understand `standard' english).  This is
> a far cry from the `mandataed speaking of Ebonics' which CPunks seem so
> up in arms about.  No such program exists or has existed.

Maybe "Yebonics" (this sounds better in Russian - I'll let Igor translate)
is a step in the right direction to allow the English language to continue
its natural development and to become more like Chinese. I work sometimes
with folks from the Carribean who are well-educated but choose to speak
the dialect and frankly I find it more logical. Or maybe I just like these
guys and my perception is skewed.

"I be, we be, you be, he/she/it be, they be" - good.
"I go, he go" - good.
"I done go" instead of "I went" - good.
"Keyboard belong me" instead of "My keyboard" - good.
The last one is actually not Black English, but the Pigin English spoken
in papua-new guinea.

> At any rate, as someone already pointed out, the main reason for the
> designation of Ebonics as a language is that it overnight doubled the
> number of students whom Oakland can count towards federal matching funds
> for ESL...

In NYC a student with a Spanish surname will be forcibly put in ESL even
if neither s/he nor the parents speak a word of Spanish, or want to. It
brings more money to the school. (That's only in public schools, of course).
Expect black kids to be forced to stidy "ebonics" whether they want to or
not, while white kids will study something useful.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
>
> (Where is "Logos" these days?)

Jerking off at www.playgirl.com, like a true "cypher punk".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Matt,

Are you honestly arguing that a system of communication
acknoledged and taught in a public school is satisfying
a 'need or desire to communicate in a private way"?

Or that Ebonics has anything to do with communicating
in the presence of a police officer?

Or that either of the above has anything to do with crypto?

If so, then I think you've said more than enough.

-j, who would like to note that nothing about my viewpoint on
Ebonics has been stated in this message.


At 6:06 PM -0600 on 12/21/96, Matthew J. Miszewski wrote:

> Crypto angle, here?  Much of Ebonics has been based upon a need or desire
> to communicate in a private way.  "5-0" was initiated as a way to
> communicate the presence of a police officer.  Surely, we are not arguing
> against the development of a low-level way to scramble language.  Or in
> fact, are you arguing that attempts to curtail the police should *not* be
> encouraged?  This seems odd coming from some members of the list (Collapse
> of Governments and all) ;-).
>
> Matt

--
"I'm about to, or I am going to, die. Either expression is used."
                - Last words of Dominique Bouhours, Grammarian, 1702
____________________________________________________________________
Jamie Lawrence                                     foodie@netcom.com

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On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Matthew J. Miszewski wrote:

> Why is it that personal freedom, sometimes expressed by choice of dialect
> or language, seemingly has such arbitrary limits?  Many on the list
> complain that they are subject to too many rules, and yet, seem to chime in
> on multi-linugual issues in this way.

I never said that the government should force people to speak a certain
language.  You are missing the main point: How do you expect to communicate
with an employee who can't speak any language that you can understand?  It's
not arbitrary at all.  In fact, it's rather simple.

Mark
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X-Folder:

In <3.0.32.19961221180621.006965f0@mail.execpc.com>, on 12/21/96 at 08:06 PM,
   "Matthew J. Miszewski" <mjmiski@execpc.com> said:

>Why is it that personal freedom, sometimes expressed by choice of dialect
>or language, seemingly has such arbitrary limits?  Many on the list
>complain that they are subject to too many rules, and yet, seem to chime in
>on multi-linugual issues in this way.

Matt you seem to be missing the point.

As far as I can tell no one cares how individuals or in what "language"
individuals care to speak in. It is a compleetle different issue when you are talking
about a government sponcered "second language".

As with all things the government does this is just a trial balloon for bigger and
"better" things. Tax forms in Afrolish, Voting Ballots in Afrolish, matter of fact all
government documents in Afrolish. Anti-discrimination suits & laws because a perspective
employee was turned down for a job on the basis that he  can not speak English only
Afrolish.

If you look outside the political/economic spectrum you have the issues dealing with
society as a whole.
While I could write a thesis on this here are some basic question to ask:

What are the effects of having a subset of a society with the following:

 - Speak a differnt language
 - Practice a different religion
 - Have a different work ethic
 - Have a different set of moral values
 - Have a different cultural background

How will this group fair economically?
How will this group fair politically?

What are the effects of such a group violently refusing to integrate into the society as a
whole?

What historical presedents do you have to support your views?

Historical Examples:

  - Programs against the Jews in Europe & Russia
  - Turks & Armanians
  - Greeks & Turks
  - Palistinians & Jews in Israel (20th Century)



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