Re: Logos -vs- Vulis

Dale Thorn wrote:

> Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> > Lame losers who call themselves "cypher punks" and bend
> > over for John Gilmore.

>      It is obvious that you, Dimitri Vulis, intend to be
> disruptive to the operation of this list. I have politely
> asked you several specific questions about your motives.

Sorry for the noise, but could Logos be specific as to the fallacy in
each item he/she is addressing?  I thought that was the purpose of
the Logos character.

     I indicated in my original post that I would be
addressing both logic and decorum. With regard to the
questions above, I was asking Dimitri Vulis to give a
more detailed explanation of his thinking process.  Once
some of his assumptions are made explicit, it will be
easier to make meaningful comments about the rigor of his
reasoning process.
     It was never my intent to nit pick about every bit
of sloppy reasoning by every poster to Cypherpunks. Rather,
I am trying to elevate the general level of discourse via
selective commentary and (hopefully) by example.
     If Dale Thorn, or anyone else, feels that a more 
rigourous attention to logic and/or decorum is called for,
I heartily welcome your participation.

Logos out

logos wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> > > Lame losers who call themselves "cypher punks" and bend
> > > over for John Gilmore.

> > It is obvious that you, Dimitri Vulis, intend to be
> > disruptive to the operation of this list. I have politely
> > asked you several specific questions about your motives.

> Sorry for the noise, but could Logos be specific as to the fallacy in
> each item he/she is addressing?  I thought that was the purpose of
> the Logos character.

> I indicated in my original post that I would be addressing both logic
> and decorum.[snip]
> It was never my intent to nit pick about every bit of sloppy reasoning
> by every poster to Cypherpunks.  Rather, I am trying to elevate the
> general level of discourse via selective commentary and (hopefully) by
> example.  If Dale Thorn, or anyone else, feels that a more rigourous
> attention to logic and/or decorum is called for, I heartily welcome
> your participation.

I understand that you don't want to nit-pick *every* bit of every post,
however, once you do decide to pick on somebody, surely you could point
to the specific fallacies, rather than wring your hands and gnash your
teeth as you did in the long note to the Great Expelled One.

Don't think I don't know what's going on here. I got permanently expelled
from two schools as a youth, to name just two examples from my illustrious
career, yet after learning how to play the game, I probably am doing much
better than most of the drones who completed their studies and kept their
mouths shut.  My life is continually interesting, and I wouldn't think of
trading it for the neurotic, control-freak-mentality lifestyle certain
folks around here "enjoy".

I'm sure (if you know crypto topics) you realize that in creating a crypto
solution, there's no substitute for rigorous attention to detail.  I'm not
opposed to paying some attention to decorum, but logic comes first,
otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on.

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In <32A67717.1E5D@gte.net>, on 12/04/96 
   at 11:17 PM, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

::I understand that you don't want to nit-pick *every* bit of every post,
::however, once you do decide to pick on somebody, surely you could point
::to the specific fallacies, rather than wring your hands and gnash your
::teeth as you did in the long note to the Great Expelled One.
::
        hey, logos wants to perform a service.  however, let's keep the
    wailing, weeping, and gnashing of teeth on the sidelines with direct
    mail to the group involved instead of cluttering the list with yet 
    more noise (like this waste of time).

::Don't think I don't know what's going on here. I got permanently
::expelled from two schools as a youth, to name just two examples from my
::illustrious career, yet after learning how to play the game, I probably
::am doing much better than most of the drones who completed their studies
::and kept their mouths shut.  My life is continually interesting, and I
::wouldn't think of trading it for the neurotic, control-freak-mentality
::lifestyle certain folks around here "enjoy".
::
    you're not unusual, in the first place since many high performers 
    just were not willing to waste time in a slow paced and probably
    parochial (not religion connotation) school.

    as for a the attitude, Dale has carried right on without taking
    a break.  as for being less wired and neurotic, I doubt it --Dale's
    into big time, including picking on anyone who he deems inferior
    and or maybe even "Children of a Lesser god."

::I'm sure (if you know crypto topics) you realize that in creating a
::crypto solution, there's no substitute for rigorous attention to detail. 
::I'm not opposed to paying some attention to decorum, but logic comes
::first, otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on.
::
    and to prove your own point --but not in your favour:  since when
    did logic preclude decorum. that's sort of follows the rule:

        "profanity is the refuge of inarticulate motherfuckers."

    when you blow you own logic by being profanely indecorus. And I'll
    say it again, and again:

        if the residents of cypherpunk land can not express themselves
    with respect for their colleages, even in disagreement, then cp is
    a has been and will be quoted in ridicule by the news organizations
    and the Congress as an anarchistic bunch of uncivilized and uncouth
    barbarians screaming "cryptography and anarchy for the masses."

        Is that what you want?

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attila@primenet.com wrote:
>    at 11:17 PM, Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> said:

[snippo]

> ::Don't think I don't know what's going on here. I got permanently
> ::expelled from two schools as a youth, to name just two examples from my
> ::illustrious career, yet after learning how to play the game, I probably
> ::am doing much better than most of the drones who completed their studies
> ::and kept their mouths shut.  My life is continually interesting, and I
> ::wouldn't think of trading it for the neurotic, control-freak-mentality
> ::lifestyle certain folks around here "enjoy".

>     you're not unusual, in the first place since many high performers
>     just were not willing to waste time in a slow paced and probably
>     parochial (not religion connotation) school.
>     as for a the attitude, Dale has carried right on without taking
>     a break.  as for being less wired and neurotic, I doubt it --Dale's
>     into big time, including picking on anyone who he deems inferior
>     and or maybe even "Children of a Lesser god."

Are you saying I've picked on everyone?  I didn't claim to be neurosis-
free, but at least I recognize neurosis and deal with it reasonably well.
If you think any specific point I've made connotes neurosis rather than
an attempt to help someone out or correct a serious fallacy, then feel
free to point it out, and please be specific.  It's not fair to blame
someone who is an active and somewhat feisty thinker for your own
inferiority complex.

> ::I'm sure (if you know crypto topics) you realize that in creating a
> ::crypto solution, there's no substitute for rigorous attention to detail.
> ::I'm not opposed to paying some attention to decorum, but logic comes
> ::first, otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on.

>     did logic preclude decorum. that's sort of follows the rule:
>         "profanity is the refuge of inarticulate motherfuckers."
>     when you blow you own logic by being profanely indecorus. And I'll
>     say it again, and again:

Profanity?  I doubt I've been as profane as most of the long-term
subscribers (leaders?) on the list.  Maybe you should check those
posts more carefully.

>         if the residents of cypherpunk land can not express themselves
>     with respect for their colleages, even in disagreement, then cp is
>     a has been and will be quoted in ridicule by the news organizations
>     and the Congress as an anarchistic bunch of uncivilized and uncouth
>     barbarians screaming "cryptography and anarchy for the masses."

I/we should seek respect from "news organizations" and/or "the Congress"??

You must have ate something really bad before you had that dream.

On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:

> I'm not
> opposed to paying some attention to decorum, but logic comes first,
> otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on.

     Reasonable minds can differ on this subject. I think
decorum must come first. We must first stop 'shouting'
before logic may be heard.

Logos out

logos wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
> > I'm not opposed to paying some attention to decorum, but logic comes
> > first, otherwise, you won't have a leg to stand on.

> Reasonable minds can differ on this subject. I think decorum must come
> first. We must first stop 'shouting' before logic may be heard.

Easily disproved.  You can shout a logical proposition/exposition or
you can whisper it, it's just as clear and relevant (if it's really
logical) either way.

Decorum, on the other hand, is somewhat nebulous, which I suppose is
attractive to some....  If it doesn't "feel" good to some subscribers,
they'll ignore it, which must be your point, eh?