Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500
> From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Subject: Fighting the cybercensor.
> 
> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?

'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot,
let him. Might be purty funny to watch.

> The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice 
> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of
> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal.

Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation.


                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think
>> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it?
>
>'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
>stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
>our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any

Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" -
it's made up of the activies and property of many different people.
If some of those people don't like what other people are saying,
or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've
got enough guns to call themselves "the government".
If they don't like something, they don't have to read it,
or they can send out their own counter-propaganda.

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#     (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

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On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to
> stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run
> our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any
> particular view on them.

I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is
exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless.
What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the
URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to
filter it.  These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this.  If
they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no
obligation to make it easy for them.

> Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share
> data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have
> no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end
> wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the
> implimentation thereof.

If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice.  Ultimately, the people can
abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives
being lost.  I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries
have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks.

> You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to
> call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore
> Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an
> invitation.

These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without
the burdens of the citizens having free access to information.  It just doesn't
work that way.  They can pull the plug if they want.  If they don't, then they
have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information
into their respective countries.  If the information was "uninvited", then
nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway.

Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of
either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected
to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the
government doesn't want these people to access.  Either way, it will force
these countries to change in some way.  I think most of them will eventually
settle for the latter choice.  Allowing these countries to censor their
connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided.



Mark
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