Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT

> > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> 
> No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.

I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
the start of the censorship.
 

  Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.

I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>                           SANDY SANDFORT
>  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> C'punks,
  ^
There's some confusion as to what this 'C' stands for. It stands
for "cocksucker", as in "Timmy Cocksucker May" -- not "crypto".

Q: How does Moderator Sandfart address a "cypher punks" meating?
A: "My fellow cocksuckers!"

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
>
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.

E.g. there'll be no more "copyright violations" (aka "news spam") on
the moderated list. Can anyone suggest an appropriate place for it?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> > the start of the censorship.
> 
> I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> (Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.)

  I think that 'fear' has already started eating away at
people's brains. I have found I am getting more crypto-
related 'private' email from people who seem to be afraid
of being 'seen' talking to me.

  In terms of 'seeing what you want to see', I have the 
perfect solution for those who actively seek to do just
that.
  Set your email filter so that you only read your own
posts. That way, your world-view will be filled only with
smart, witty, intelligent posts.

  As for 'moderation', I consider it to have started with
the forced removal of Dr. DV K from the list, although,
of course, others are free to 'wrongly' disagree with me
on this.

Toto

paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk writes:

> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> >
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
>
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since
> the start of the censorship.

I quite agree - a number of people stopped posting in protest when Cocksucker
Gilmore unsubscribed me because he didn't like the content of my articles.

Of course Paul "brute force attack on one-time pad" Bradley was one of the
pro-censorship goons who asked John to "remove" me from the mailing list.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> > > I suppose you want a special censored list where everyone who uses
> > > the word "fuck" in relation to your good self or any other member of
> > > this list you agree with has their posting cut?
> > 
> > No, I don't want censored anything. "Cypher punks" have degenerated into
> > a moderated forum where those who dare criticize His Royal Majesty John
> > the Cocksucker and his court are forcibly unsubscribed, while all sorts
> > of vile insults directed at John's many "enemies" are encouraged.
> 
> I quite agree, there is something most definitely wrong with this 
> whole situation, still, at least there are some crypto-relevant 
> people on the "cryptography" mailing list. cypherpunks still has worthwhile 
> nuggets on it but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since 
> the start of the censorship.
> 
>        Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk

Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list. 

Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth. 

So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
done yet]?" 

<sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>

AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> Um, Paul? I hate to break it to you, but they're not moderating yet. If
> they were, we wouldn't get as much slime as we do on the list.

One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.

At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

> Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
advocates censorship, most likely is one.

> So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> done yet]?"

The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
"news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

> <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>

You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.

A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> advocates censorship, most likely is one.

Non sequitor.

> > So I ask you this: If the moderation isn't yet implemented, then how has
> > it "gone down sharply since the start of the censorship [which hasn't been
> > done yet]?"
> 
> The way Sandfart has gone down on Gilmore or the way Gilmore has gone
> down on Inman? Or the way "copyright violations" (formerly known as
> "news spam") will not be sent to a censored forum?

Non sequitor.

> > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> 
> You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.

Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
a long time past.

AIDAS <aidas@ixsrs4.ix.netcom.com> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
>
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

Thank you - and I urge others to follow my example.

> > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> >
> > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
>
> Non sequitor.
            ^
Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> > >
> > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.
> >
> > Non sequitor.
>             ^
> Do "cypher punks" use lousy spelling as a kind of "poor fag's crypto"?

<sarcasm> (For those too stupid to see it except when explicitly denoted)

Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames, and my
mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis, for we are in
need!

</sarcasm>

AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.

> > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> for we are in need!

It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
suspicious.

Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> AIDAS wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed with the
> > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons that
> > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so forth.
> 
> > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and who
> > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > for we are in need!
> 
> It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> suspicious.

But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

	- Igor.

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dale Thorn wrote:
> >
> > AIDAS wrote:
> > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > > > > > > Personally, I wish they'd hurry up. I'm getting rather annoyed wi
> > > > > > > spam, the "you're all homosexuals" postings, the posts by morons
> > > > > > > can't figure out Majordomo or their mailers, and so on and so for
> >
> > > > > > Not sure about "all", but someone whose name sounds like AIDS, and
> > > > > > advocates censorship, most likely is one.[snip]
> > > Ah, very strong response indeed. I feel as if shot down in flames,
> > > and my mind aches from the slice of your wit. Deliver us, oh Vulis,
> > > for we are in need!
> >
> > It still looks like Sandy to me.  Writing style for one, unwillingness
> > to drop an argument for two, and the use of the name AIDAS is *very*
> > suspicious.
>
> But Sandy gave his word publicly that he was not AIDAS!

Sandy is a proven liar.

However the AIDStwit sounds more like Ray Arachelian.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

AIDAS wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
> 
> A decision to which you have definately stuck.

> > > <sarcasm> I just can't wait to see what kind of witty comment Dimitri will
> > > have on the first and second paragraphs of my response. </sarcasm>
> >
> > You're not worth a witty comment, 'punk.
> 
> Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> a long time past.

Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  All of these are five characters
long.  Coincidence?

On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote:

> > Or you're not capable of providing one. I think you reached your wit's end
> > a long time past.
> 
> Could AIDAS also be LOGOS (Sandy)?  

Not last I checked.

> All of these are five characters
> long.  

Very perceptive.

>Coincidence?

Yes.

It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
superficial lack of crypto relevance.

Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
on mailing lists.

Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
expert human input to be done properly.

Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:

1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.

The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
may have missed earlier phases).

There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:

6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)

7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
"cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
"cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).

8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
and ensuing instructions and discussion

9. Subscribing the list to other lists

10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)

>From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
results c and d described below):

Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> 
> At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.

His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
list series of experiments have been:

a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him

b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
this list)

c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
(creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
advocate)

d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.

e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
agreement from John Gilmore.

These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
congratulated on his outstanding work.

I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:

1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
in preparation for the moderation).

2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.

3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.

4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs

I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
configuration and management in light of his experiments.

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

my predictions: 

	1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods
	2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation
	   and censorship
	3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks
	   mailing lists, all doomed to fail
	4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created
	5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting 
	   at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks
	6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work
	7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks
	   will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly
	   by Dr. John Martin Grubor

igor

Adam Back wrote:
> 
> 
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> 
> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.  His
> current topic under investigation is Denial of Service (DoS) attacks
> on mailing lists.
> 
> Denial of service on mailing lists is a complex business, and requires
> expert human input to be done properly.
> 
> Dimitri has systematically explored these types of posting behaviour:
> 
> 1. Posting only crypto relevant material.
> 2. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with hand personalised flame bait.
> 3. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with bot generated flame bait.
> 4. Interspersing crypto relevant posts with news stories.
> 5. Posting only non crypto relevant material.
> 
> The alert reader will recall these phases of posting style (currently
> we are in sub experiment 5, the other phases have occured over a
> protracted period of intensive experimentation, and some newer readers
> may have missed earlier phases).
> 
> There were other experiments which may or may not have been part of
> Dimitri's series of DoS experiments:
> 
> 6. Subscribing the list to itself (testing list resilience to recursion)
> 
> 7. Forging posts to carefully selected newsgroups with
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" as the sender (this indirectly adds user
> "cypherpunks@toad.com" to many direct marketing lists as direct
> marketers make use of email addresses scanned from newsgroups).
> 
> 8. The "UNSCRIVE" and other spelling variations of "unsubscribe" epidemic,
> and ensuing instructions and discussion
> 
> 9. Subscribing the list to other lists
> 
> 10. Bot generated flame bait posted anonymously (with ascii art)
> 
> >From the post I am following up to the reader will observe an oblique
> reference to the transition from phase 4 of the experiments to the
> current phase, phase 5 (the reader will also note references to experimental
> results c and d described below):
> 
> Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> > One memorable "censorship" incident occurred when the lying cocksucker
> > John Gilmore (spit) forcibly unsubscribed me from this list because he
> > didn't like the contents of my submissions - or did you forget already?
> > Look up Declan's disgraceful writeup on Netly News archives.
> > 
> > At that time most valuable contributors to this list (such as myself)
> > resolved not to contribute crypto-relevant content to a censored forum.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> More widely read cypherpunks will know that Dimitri has performed
> similar experiments in other fora -- his systematic experiments in
> numerous USENET newsgroups resulted in the his receiving the
> prestigious KOTM ("Kook Of The Month") award.
> 
> His main experimental results to date with the cypherpunks mailing
> list series of experiments have been:
> 
> a) many cypherpunks publically announcing kill filing him
> 
> b) numerous cypherpunks suggesting censoring him (a particularly
> interesting result considering the libertarian leanings of many on
> this list)
> 
> c) the outstanding experimental result of being forcibly unsubscribed
> from the list, and of being barred from resubscribing by John Gilmore.
> (creator of alt.* USENET newsgroup hierarchy, and well know freespeech
> advocate)
> 
> d) another interesting, incidental experimental result was provided by
> Declan McCullagh in his Netly News piece in prematurely, and entirely
> unwittingly, publishing some of Dimitri's expermiental data-set.
> 
> e) the main experimental result: the list shortly moving to a
> moderated form, seemingly at the request of Sandy Sandfort, with
> agreement from John Gilmore.
> 
> These experimental results are quite significant, when taken in the
> context of the anti-censorship, libertarian, pro-freespeech
> environment of the cypherpunks mailing list.  Dimitri should be
> congratulated on his outstanding work.
> 
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> 
> 1. Testing the limits of Dale Thorn's anti-censorship sentiments (for
> those who don't read Dale, he is subscribed to "cypherpunks-unedited"
> in preparation for the moderation).
> 
> 2. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection criteria.
> 
> 3. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for long crypto relevant
> posts interspersed with irrelevant flame bait.
> 
> 4. Testing Sandy Sandforts rejection rate for posts with flame bait .sigs
> 
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.
> 
> Adam
> --
> print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
> 



	- Igor.

Adam Back wrote:

This was an utterly fascinating post, if y'all don't mind my saying so.
I certainly can't vouch for the details (or the theories), but whether
any of the details are deliberate experiments on Dimitri's part or not,
the totality of what has taken place would make an excellent source
for a post-graduate study.  Am I right?

I would suggest, however, if you're looking for a likely candidate for
really advanced social manipulation/experimentation, you should be
looking at the list owner(s), not the gadflys.

There's this silly theory some people have, that once in a while the
little people (the good guys?) win enough points to set the bad guys
back a ways.  Not in 20th century Amerika.  Read Carl Oglesby's
article "Paranoia As A Way Of Knowing", and think: "Paranoia As A Way
Of Knowing Who We Are."

[much text deleted below]
> It's occured to me recently that Dimitri's posts are not being read
> correctly, it is not the content which is the point, nor the
> superficial lack of crypto relevance.
> I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when
> the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum.  My suggestions for
> interesting experiments during the moderated phase are:
> I hope Dimitri's selfless efforts in furthering understanding of DoS
> attacks on mailing lists is properly acknowledged when he publishes
> his findings on completion of his experiments.  I also hope that
> Dimitri will document his recommendations for mailing list
> configuration and management in light of his experiments.

Adam Back wrote:

> Dimitri is an intelligent guy, and has a high level of crypto
> expertise (he has a PhD on a cryptography topic).  It is my belief
> that his posts can only be understood in a "meta" sense -- he is
> engaged in a highly complex cryptographic experiment.  People who read
> and respond to his individual posts are the unwitting subjects in his
> experiments.  His posts and the responses to them are actually the
> data-set for a thorough cryptanalysis of mailing list threats.

  Your post gives food for thought...much more so than the one in 
which I proposed my "No, he's just an asshole." theory.
  BTW, the results of my poll regarding this theory were:

"Is Too"  --  4%
"Is Not"  --  3%
"Hey, leave me out of this--'they' may be watching!"  --  9%
"Make Big $$Money$$ Licking Your Own Dick!!!"         -- 74%
"Unscribirbe"  --  10%

Toto