Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"

<tmcghan@gill-simpson.com> writes:
> in a message allegedly from:  "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net>
> 
> > I would have had no problem had John announced that he was creating
> > a new list, the "Good Stuff" list, with Sandy has his Chooser of
> > Good Stuff.
> 
> > But by making the _main list_ the censored one, this skewed things
> > considerably.
> 
> > But the clear message by having Sandy censor the
> > main list (the default list, the list name with the main name, the
> > list we all know about, etc.) 
> 
> Now that the horse is out of the barn, ( or maybe not? ), I can't help
> but ask whether one specific 'change to the change' would have
> satisfied most of your objections:  retaining 'cypherpunks' as the
> name of the unedited, all-the-crud-you-can-read-and-then-some,
> version, and adding an 'cp-worthwhile' list for those of us who prefer
> not to wade thru mountains of garbage to glean a few precious tidbits.

That was the objectionable part of the moderation experiment to me.

> What's in a name?  Is perception more important ( to you ) than 
> reality?  If just swapping names between cp and cp-unedited would make
> such a large difference, I humbly suggest to you that you consider how
> much labels need to matter.  Is the title of the group more important
> the the content?  From where I sit, this looks a lot like a
> style-over-substance complaint.

There is a lot in a name.  The name `Cypherpunks' has, or had a
reputation.  Tricks like censoring the list are not helping that
reputation.

This wording indicates that the other two lists are to satisfy
purists:

(relevant output from sending message with body `lists' to
majordomo@toad.com)

: cypherpunks         (THE MAIN LIST)  Fermenting ideas on crypto and society 
: cypherpunks-flames  (FLAMES DELETED BY MODERATOR) Ideas on crypto and society
: cypherpunks-unedited (THE UN-MODERATED LIST) Ideas on crypto and society

The naming convention indicates that cypherpunks is the main list, as
does the ordering (moderated first).  The text in the sign up message:

(extracts from output from sending message with body `info
cypherpunks' to majordomo@toad.com)

:	cypherpunks		moderated to suppress spam and flames
:	cypherpunks-unedited	all submissions, just as they arrived
:	cypherpunks-flames	the submissions that didn't pass moderation

Also I note in passing that if I recall correctly this section used to
give Hugh Daniel's email address.  Seems John is managing majordomo
himself now?  Is Hugh's no longer being list manager related to the
moderation decision?

: For other questions, my list management address is not the best place,
: since I don't read it every day.  To reach me otherwise, send mail to
: 
: 	gnu@toad.com

> It may also be worth noting that the current 'status quo' is a 
> transient experiment, with a fairly short time limit.  When JG, 
> Sandy, et al. evaluate the results with an eye to future 
> direction(s), they may well consider an 'inverted default' for the two
> list names (i.e.:  cp / cp-unedited)

It would be nice also if JG, Sandy et al, took some notice of the list
opinions next time.

It really would have been better to create a _new_ moderated list,
rather than take over the existing list address, and subscribers.

Maybe those who initiated the moderation experiment thought they
wouldn't get many people moving over to the moderated list if they had
to go to that effort.

Another alternative would have been to discontinue `cypherpunks' and
start `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-unedited' forcing people
to choose.  I wouldn't have liked that either, but it would have been
a better experiment.  (Likely that would have lost many altogether,
who simply wouldn't have bothered to resubscribe at all).

Several times in the past, a USENET newsgroup alt.cypherpunks was
suggested.  Some people were against it because they felt that it
would attract more noisy posters.

Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of alt.cypherpunks.  (As
an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore was the guy who started the
alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically to facilitate freedom of speech).

Adam
--
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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>>>>> "Adam" == Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:

Adam> Perhaps it is time to reconsider the benefits of
Adam> alt.cypherpunks.  (As an aside, it is ironic that John Gilmore
Adam> was the guy who started the alt.* USENET hierarchy, specifically
Adam> to facilitate freedom of speech).

This would have another benefit.  More sophisticated tools exist for
filtering usenet than for filtering email in a voluntarily cooperative
way.  For example, I use a fairly extensive .procmailrc file to filter
my email, and blow away stuff that's either spam or a post from
someone I consider a blathering idiot.  There are some other folks on
the list who likely do the same thing, and there are some whose
.procmailrc files I'd like to see, and likely include in my own.  But
there's no easy way to do that.

With alt.cypherpunks, anyone who wishes to "help kill noise" could
simply issue a NoCeM report, and those of us with reasonable
newsreaders would be able to "listen" to the reports from people with
whom we want to cooperate.  And we can ignore the rest.  

The beauty of this scheme is that the control of the list is in the
hands of the individual reader, without requiring huge amounts of
redundant effort.

It's also occurred to me that there can be folks who NoCeM the NoCeM
reports :-)

- -- 
Matt Curtin  Chief Scientist  Megasoft, Inc.  cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com
http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/    I speak only for myself
Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet

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