Re: Free & Open Society & toleration (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Nobody has a problem with your ideals, it's just that Jim Bell is
> trying to say (correct me and forgive me if I'm wrong) that:
> 
> 1. Society will never subscribe to your ideals.

But other than two points they already do. The two points being,

1. Libel is a recognized legal concept now, the difference is one of degree.
   That degree of difference being how much money there is available for
   the lawyer and their willingness to enforce the concepts of justice in
   the society based upon their perceived ability to profit by it.

2. The extension of acceptance of reasonable legal representation by lot
   from not only the defence but also the prosecution.

My solutions to these two issues are:

1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
    should be pursued.

2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary resources
    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
    representation of both parties by lot.

3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the plaintiff
    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.
 
> 2. Society is not static, i.e., instead of remaining at a constant
>    level of corruption, the officials will keep demanding more,
>    until there's a sudden, catastrophic break.

Absolutely, that is one of the reasons I refuse to seperate those who
represent the social contract (eg the Constitution) and those who are
impacted by it, which includes even those who represent it and enforce its
various responsibilities. AP relies on this distinction as axiomatic. This
axiomatic view is ultimately based in a jealous greed for what others have
(ie power, percieved or real) and the implicit belief that all people are
NOT created equal.

> 3. The AP solution has the potential to stabilize the level of
>    corruption, which should make violent revolutions and genocide
>    unnecessary.

But it doesn't. What it does is provide a mechanism for de-stabalization.
Just look at the Middle East and the history of assassination.
Assassinations have never stabalized that region or any other. There is
nothging in our current understanding of human psychology and social
interactions that leads to the conclusion that threats of violence will
necessarily force people to comply. If it did the government (as perceived
by AP) would not have to deal with real opposition. Simply threaten the
opposition and it melts away for the same reason that supposedly the
government would cease to oppose radicalism (ie changes in the status quo
forced by small groups upon the masses). If anything every real world
example of AP demonstrates an increase in corruption (eg. Beirut).

The closest analog in history to AP is the "Flowery Wars" as practiced by
the Aztecs. However, these were motivated by a belief in religous homogeneity
and not one of politics. Also, implicit in this was the axiomatic acceptance
of a real class seperation between those who ruled and those who were ruled.
By no means could one accept the premise that this caused the Aztec rulers
to be more sensitive to corruption or the continued existance of their
system. Another good example is assassination in ancient Rome, it is clear
that such activities in no way reduced corruption.

If anything AP provides a rationale (ie self-defence) to impose even harsher
a priori conditions on sections of a society by another part of that society.
Hardly what I would consider a stabalizing condition let alone democratic.
What is required for stability is for each group to feel unthreatened and
secure in expressing their beliefs without fear of reprisals and at the same
time recognizing they must provide room for others beliefs. There must also
be the realization that refusal to abide by these precepts will be met with
immediate consequences. Something AP can't do, as it explicitly promotes
threats and the carrying out thereof.

On another issue, it was asked what purpose there is in suing a poor person.
Simple lack of monetary wealth should be no more reason to exempt a party
from justice than having large quantities. A citizen should face the
consequences of their actions, how rich or poor they are is an irrelevant
issue.

Concepts required for a true working democracy:

Liberty
Justice
Equality
Fraternity


                                                         Jim Choate
                                                         CyberTects
                                                         ravage@ssz.com

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    are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured 
    tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ???  say it is not 
    so; where would our legal system be without body trading?

    as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want 
    is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the 
    religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by 
    fear).

on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said:

+1.  Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case
+    should be pursued.

    whew, open the floodgates. free lunch.

+2.  The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary
+    resources
+    by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal
+    representation of both parties by lot.

    damn, free dinner, too.

+3.  By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the
+    prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities
+    in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence
+    disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson).

    my, we're on a roll, aren't we?

+4.  By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the
+    plaintiff
+    the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as
+    well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry.

    this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his 
    ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does 
    nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem 
    to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway.

    Get real, Jim.  it may not be the best system, but other than 
    enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping 
    attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works 
    quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault?  ours, just 
    like the excesses in Washington are our fault.

    it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government 
    and judiciary.  and to convert to a pooled system for equality is 
    not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed.  

    stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft.

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