Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"

My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
readership are that:

1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
would be just another filtered list.  However there are already
several filtered lists, so the usefulness of this is limited anyway.
Merely including details of these filtered lists in the sign on
message, and posting a reminder every few weeks would suffice.  I and
apparently, most others didn't choose to subscribe to a filtering
service.  I object to this choice being over-ridden.  OK, so I can
re-subscribe to cypherpunks (cypherpunks-unedited), but many won't
bother.  (Actually I subscribe to cypherpunks-flames and cypherpunks,
as the most efficient way of receiving all messages, and still being
able to see the moderation results).

2. The impetus for moderating the main list seems to be as a result of
a few posts by Dimitri.  Really, if this is all it takes to destroy an
unmoderated list, I've got to laugh at cypherpunks collectively.  Why
is it such a big deal to press the `n' key, if you don't like what
Dimitri, or anyone else, has to say?  If your time is too valuable to
press `n' keys, what is wrong with subscribing to the existing
filtered lists?  Or with setting up a kill-file?  Or maybe generating
a bit of signal yourself?

3. It is even more funny that in my opinion Dimitri purposefully set
out to raise the issue of censorship (after his own partial
censorship), and has succeeded to this extent.  The whole thing is
just allowing yourself to be manipulated by his transparent efforts.

4. There is already a moderated forum for discussion of cypherpunks
issues: cryptography@c2.net, why do we need another one?

My vote is for renaming:

	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

and for moving all those still on the edited list to the unedited
list.  Post a note advertising the availability of a new filtering
service called `cypherpunks-edited@toad.com', along with the
references to the other competing filtering services.

If at the end of the trial forced moderation period, John Gilmore
doesn't have the bandwidth on toad.com to support all of
`cypherpunks', `cypherpunks-edited' and `cypherpunks-flames', I
suggest that a new home is found for `cypherpunks'.  Or perhaps Sandy
as proponent of his filtering service, would be able to find a home
for `sandys-filtered-cypherpunks' service, as with the other filtering
services.

Personally, I am not in the habit of flaming people, or using the word
`fuck', in general discussion, but I find the way this `filtering
service' was foisted on the main list highly objectionable.

Adam
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print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Adam Back wrote:

> My vote is for renaming:
> 	`cypherpunks-unedited' -> `cypherpunks'
> and	`cypherpunks' -> `cypherpunks-edited'

I have to agree. I'm only a 'cypherpunk' in the sense of setting up
various crypto-related Web sites and writing and giving away thousands of
lines of cryptography code rather than regularly posting to the list, but
my main concern is that the default for the list has gone from anarchy to
moderation. 

If the users of the list truly believe in anarchistic solutions to
problems then the moderated list should exist *in addition* to the
unmoderated list, rather than replacing it. In a truly anarchistic society
the cypherpunks list would be an unmoderated forum full of spam and
opinions related in some way to the list topics and numerous moderators
would charge us for their versions of the list in which they simply pass
on the messages they like. We could then choose a moderator whose
interests are similar to ours and pay them for providing us with
apropriate information. IMHO this is the way that mailing lists and Usenet
are likely to evolve as they become too large for us to read and react to
all posts; we should be in the vanguard of creating appropriate solutions
to the problems. 

Providing a moderated list which saves me from dowloading spam is a
worthwhile exercise which is potentially valuable to me (and I'm grateful
to Sandy for offering such a service for free), but I do not believe that
it should be the default for new subscribers.

	Mark

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|Mark Grant M.A., U.L.C.	  	       EMAIL: mark@unicorn.com  |
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AB> My main complaints about the `filtering' service forced upon the list
AB> readership are that:
AB> 1. It was done to the main list!  If cypherpunks were left unchanged,
AB> and a `cypherpunks-edited' were created I wouldn't have a problem, it
AB> would be just another filtered list.  However there are already

  As a lurker (I've only sent 4 messages to the list in the last 3 years),
I agree completely with Adam Back's post.

  I'd also like to point out, that I rarely read all of the messages, and
tend to select which messages to read, based on the subject.  Because of
this, I missed the message announcing that the moderation had started, 
and that there was a new, unedited list.  I didn't realize the moderation
had started, until I noticed the lack of autobot insults, and then looked
at some of the messages from the moderation thread.

  I get the list via email, through a pcboard bbs, mixed in with all of
my personal email.  I wrote a program, to separate everything from the
list into separate folder.  Switching over to the unedited list, will
require a bit more for me, then just unsubscribe/subscribe.

  I'll wait and see if the moderation continues on the main list.  If it
does, I'll go through the bother of switching to the unedited list.

  Regards, Dave Hodgins.

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