Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997

maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?

on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:

+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL

+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions.  The injunction was
+granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to
+block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on
+its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal
+its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's
+multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the
+processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources
+are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned.  In
+addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about
+the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions
+constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The
+court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state
+actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is
+instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to
+provide maximum utility to its customers."  (BNA Daily Report for
+Executives 7 Feb 97)
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
   "The only difference between me and a madman
    is that I am not mad." 
        --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
>
>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
>
>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
>
>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
...

Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made
just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."

Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is
not valid is not my idea of a free society.

Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed.
Digital postage is one approach.

I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding.

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

>+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
>+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
>+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.
>
>    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?
>

I'm sure Attila does not believe any digital postage scheme would fix the
message rate at 32 cents, but it's an issue worth expanding upon.

First, the rate would be based on true market conditions, presumably. That
is, carriers of traffic would negotiate rates. Multiple stages of carriage
would involve negotiation between carriers.

(As with shipment of physical goods, where a shipment from Alice to Bob
might involve several carriers: trucks, trains, warehouse use, delivery
vans, toll road fees. All are "folded in" to the $3 or whatever charge paid
by Alice or Bob, depending.)

Second, the carriage charges for an ordinary e-mail message would likely be
in the sub-cents range.

Third, I don't see this ontological restructuring happening anytime soon.
People have gotten used to "free" services.

Fourth, we need to be alert to moves by the U.S. Postal Service to get a
foot in the door for "digital postage." There's nothing they'd like more
than having people clamor for the government to "do something!" about spam
and "unwanted mail" and thus get this foot in the door.


>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
>
>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
>    refuses to cooperate.

Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
Attila's support for curfews).

Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon me.

Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more laws
to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something from the
Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain man
Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

(:-})

--Tim May

Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970213:0902 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 5:00 AM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

+>    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we
+>    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.
+>
+>    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society
+>    refuses to cooperate.

+Attila and I have had this disagreement before (last time it involved
+Attila's support for curfews).

+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
+me.

    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free 
    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street; 
    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does 
    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can 
    _personally_ exact justice on those who violate my space.  this is 
    a state of war which even Jim Bell's AP does not cover --AP is just 
    an anonymous and chicken-hearted way of settling the score, and 
    creates its own code even more absurb than the rules coming down 
    from Washington.

    and, I can not imagine you really believe the basic animals of our 
    society and the predators who attempt to feed upon us all do not 
    need to be restrained in one way or another.  you obviously have
    a solution: your .44 (I prefer a full choke 12 ga pump).

    maybe the comment in my sig line is an expression of the suppressed 
    feelings of the frustrated members of our society who have been 
    confronted by the inequities of our legal system when they expected 
    redress was their right.

+Talking about "irresponsible tones" and "greed" and how we need more
+laws to protect ourselves from "predators" sounds more like something
+from the Marin County limousine liberal set than from a Utah mountain
+man Cypherpunk. I'm shocked, simply shocked.

    shocked, simply shocked?  (:-})  marin county? I'm insulted <g>

    tell you what: you run afoul of us out here on the "mountain" where 
    there is no need for social niceties --we just call it "range law."
 
    
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 
 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwN12b04kQrCC2kFAQG8AwP/fT3BgeMG8V9IKOGjFEpI+3gY8F5cSohh
8qqaMrHkYT7UU1WZcO/1pGJyUycvOUgzzlFJoTYZsxP6NvJhpkGopHg31EUBDfC+
5lFDJR1hlX6ckyL8moDlxi3l0z7Dxf6VO+J5dsCetmJG+QxN7/0PzeplN5oN9Y1V
nHzMG5/FD5Y=
=G/Ag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

At 8:10 PM +0000 2/13/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>+Attila is free to hire agents to screen his mail so he does not receive
>+spam. He is not free, in a free society, to force such screeners upon
>+me.
>
>    very true. if you if define that your freedom includes the free
>    abuse of your freedoms by others.  freedom is a two way street;
>    freedom in my book says that I can do anything I wish which does
>    not infringe on the rights of others. now, that implies that I can

As this relates to "unwanted mail," I think calling this an "abuse of
freedom by others" is misleading, and a slippery slope. On this same
slippery slope lies the claims by some women, as an example, that images in
Playboy "abuse their freedoms" (I'd've thought a different kind of abuse is
involved, but I won't get into that here).

Is unwanted physical mail also an abuse of freedom? How about unwanted
personal letters? How about unwanted conversations in a Cypherpunks meeting?

The answer to all of these issues lies outside the State. Invoking the
power of Men with Guns to stop these "unwanted contacts" is simply wrong.

Attila seems to be arguing that the State has a legitimate role in
censoring certain contacts, whereas I argue that technology and contracting
can almost always do a better job.

I repeat: Attila is free to hire a censor, or nanny, or personal secretary
to screen his calls, to sift through his mail to pass on only the most
relevant stuff, and so on. Many celebrities and busy people do just this.

(In the CompuServe case which triggered this thread, CompuServe certainly
could have offered a "filtering" service to its members. This would be
unexceptionable, and the right way to go, contractually and
technologically.)

Attila is not free, in a free society, to claim (*) that his freedoms are
being infringed when people send him mail he is not interested in.

(* He can certainly _claim_ it, but he cannot bring the State in to enforce
his dubious claim about his freedom being infringed.)

By the way, I think the "junk fax" and "junk phone call" laws are clearcut
violations of the First Amendment. I understand why the herd _wants_ these
laws, as it reduces the costs involved in replacing fax paper, running to
the telephone only to find someone trying to sell something, etc., but it
is quite clearly a prior restraint on speech, however well-intentioned.

(There are technological solutions to these problems as well. The laws
shield people from having to deal with these solutions, however.)

--Tim May





Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside"
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

on or about 970212:1525 "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said:

+At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote:
+>    maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin?
+>
+>on or about 970211:1433 educom@elanor.oit.unc.edu said:
+>
+>+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL
+>
+>+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a
+>+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending
+>+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider
+...

+Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was
+intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has
+made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not."]]
+
    I could not agree more, in theory, except for the postage you 
    discuss below which permits spammers greed to exceed responsibility, 
    let alone the public interest.

    I am, of course, a theoretical anarchist; I believe I could put 
    aside greed (and have) to be sufficiently altruistic to make a 
    society of anarchists work (in a limited population model). 
    However:

        "Only two things are infinite, 
          the universe and human stupidity, 
          and I'm not sure about the former."
                --Albert Einstein

    as long as we have a >30% third and fourth generation welfare class 
    which the dogood liberal bleeders say we are obligated to sustain 
    their breeding; and another 30% which are functionally illiterate, 
    there is no hope for idealism.
 
    our "neighbors" have no idea how to spell anarchy, let alone 
    understand the price of freedom.

    just because I would cut off the permanent welfare class at the 
    knees, and disenfranchise the functionally illiterate if I had the 
    chance, does not make anarchy any more feasible; it's just a more 
    rigid police state for the havenots --again, something we do not 
    need.

    sorry to be a pragmatic pessimist, but it went down hill with the 
    16th amendment and the Federal Reserve Act to benefit the     
    Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Rothschilds, Chases, etc. at our expense. 

+Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and
+what is not valid is not my idea of a free society.
+
    again, you are correct except anarchy requires responsibility. free 
    agency has its requirements and this is why junk fax was banned.
    too many members of our society can not spell anarchy or 
    responsibility --their knowledge of vocabulary starts and ends with 
    greed.

+Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the
+sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be
+fixed. Digital postage is one approach.

    probably cut down on our postings to cp as well!  32 cents to post?

+I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court"
+deciding.

    I don't like the regulatory agencies either, but at least they are 
    not Judge Roy Bean, Law West of the Pecos.

    unfortunately, until the irresponsible tone down their greed, we 
    need the regulation to protect ourselves from the predators.

    in other words, I agree with you in my heart, but our society 
    refuses to cooperate.  

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
  "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, 
    why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; 
    is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C 
    for the purpose of seeing justice done; 
    and why person C has any legitimate gripe,
    if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." 

 ___________________________________________________________attila_____
 "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: latin1
Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be

iQCVAwUBMwKgzb04kQrCC2kFAQEK0AP+PBClPteXMYFpcfJaeYgP8c077LZwFE5i
O2taYhGGY2oiuw5U2r3Y4Qv2P/8CsCtZ/eSrBlmvMTOrYEi2Le0fjiefAFKte2g4
FSJ67ttFC3gSQyj75r99TJ+roYnJzGgec9X5f/kOr3Z0m3Da6u+m/l7siNmDOPae
RDWsxwmjcyM=
=huRr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----