Re: FBI Visits JPUNIX

jim bell wrote:
> 
> At 10:35 PM 3/20/97 -0500, John Perry wrote:
> > Apparently some high-ranking
> >official has been receiving anonymous email coming from my site that
> >is of a threatening nature. This official has decided to call in the
> >FBI as I was visited by said organization. I am shutting down remailer
> >operations immediately. 
 
> I think you should name the "high-ranking official" involved. 

  If there actually is one.

> We (and you) might also point out that as far as you know, these threatening
> notes could have been send by GOVERNMENT people, in an attempt to shut down
> the system.

  Perhaps there was no threatening note.
  Perhaps there was no visit from the FBI.

  The attempt to destroy the cypherpunks list failed. The next logical
target would be the remailers.
  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
feasible for Big Business to operate.
  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
remailers seems to be the new agenda.

  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

Truthmonger


    Cindy
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) writes:
...
>
> Truthmonger
>
>
>     Cindy
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do we know anyone named Cindy?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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At 10:46 PM 3/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote:
>  Two remailers go down in the same week, both being tenacles of C2Net.
>  Greg Broiles once again happens upon the scene of the accident, and
>predictably warns everyone of the grave dangers and liabilities facing
>remailer operators. How long until he publicly calls for the remailers
>to be "killed," as he did with the cypherpunks list?

You ought to read more carefully. I suggested that remailers who *charge for
remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights. I've
been making that point for at least a year, maybe as long as two years.
(There's a particular Ninth Circuit case - _Fonovisa v. Cherry Auction_ -
which I believe suggests that conclusion, or at least highlights the
relationship between profit and contributory/vicarious liability. It's also
discussed in _RTC v. Netcom_, although the _Fonovisa_ case discussed in _RTC_
was the district court's opinion, which was reversed in the Ninth Circuit, if
I remember correctly.)

Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? Or
that I speak up and be called an enemy of the remailers? It's not clear to me
what you think I ought to do, except perhaps modify my understanding of the
law to more closely match what you wish it was. 

Also, I did not call for the list to be killed, I said I thought it was dead,
and still think so. The list sees precious few messages worth reading or
responding to. Other forums provide a much better signal/noise ratio and have
far fewer distracting kooks. This list was once a useful place to keep
up-to-date on new developments in cryptography, both technical and
legal/political. Now it's mostly useful as a decoy, allowing loons & kooks of
various flavors to focus their energies and messages here, leaving other
lists and other forums for people actually interested in getting things done.
I get better crypto news faster from other places now. 

My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

- --

I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about
to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing
things with a group of people over the course of several years and then
disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything
more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree
with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to
other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can
still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can.

- --

>  Instead of solutions to the problems facing small remailers, we have
>schills coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that remailers are only
>feasible for Big Business to operate.

I think anyone (be they a "real person" or a "corporate person") with any
substantial assets ought to distance themselves from remailers because there
are too many people inclined to deliberately attack remailer operators and
the remailer network by sending harmful messages which they or third parties
then complain about. If I didn't think this was true, I'd run a remailer
again myself. 

My current favorite model for remailer ownership and financing consists of a
charitable or spendthrift trust which [perhaps funds a nonprofit corporation
which] rents machine time/net access to run a remailer.

I think that actually fighting a lawsuit against a remailer is likely
pointless, unless the remailer attracts an attorney willing to handle it pro
bono and the remailer operator feels like being a test case. It makes much
more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
ISP. 

>  Corporate takeover of the list failed, now corporate takeover of the
>remailers seems to be the new agenda.

Why would this be useful? Big greedy corporations can't get enough potential
liability? Big greedy corporations can't get enough spam? Big greedy
corporations want to get complaint mail? You've obviously never run a
remailer or a corporation yourself.

>  I suggest that, instead of wasting time on a new battle, we simply 
>resurrect all of the arguments over list control and re-post them
>as arguments over remailer control, simply substituting the word
>"remailer" everywhere that the word "list" occurs.

I suggest that you get a new hobby.


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--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.
                            |

Greg Broiles wrote:
> 
> I suggested that remailers who *charge for
> remailing* may be treated differently under the law than remailers who don't
> if they're sued as contributory or vicarious infringers of copyrights.
> 
> Would you prefer that I don't mention that potential development and silently
> watch remailer operators unknowingly expose themselves to extra liability? 

  I would prefer that you use your claimed legal knowledge to suggest
ways for remailers to prevail, rather than reasons for them to quit.

  R.J. Ringer says, "There are basically two kinds of attorneys who 
kill deals: those who admit it (none) and those who deny it (all)."
  Lawyers are for government and corporations, where they can get 
together and charge their employers/clients large sums to decide who
gets fucked, when they get fucked, and how they get fucked.
  In the ordinary world they are as useful as balls on a mannequin.

  The only lawyers I've seen who are capable of enabling action, rather
than killing deals, are mob lawyers. I think it may be because they are
working for rats who are too big to fuck.

> Also, I did not call for the list to be killed
> My comments, sent on 2/6/97, about "killing the list" are below:

> it looks to me like it's time to kill the list 

  You're leading with your chin, Greg.
 
> It makes much
> more sense to think of remailers as temporary and ephemeral, disappearing
> when squeezed too hard and reappearing with a different name and different
> ISP.

  Damn, this is right on the edge of almost being a positive thought.
Perhaps if you were kidnapped and deprogrammed soon, there might still
be hope for you to live a normal life.
  If you are going to point out the doom and gloom issues surrounding
remailers, then why not at least point their operators toward whatever
ray of light there may be, as well?

  Perhaps you could work with Attila to enhance remailer operator's
chances of survival.
  You could teach them how to duck, and he could teach them how to
shoot.

-- 
Toto
"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"
http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html