Re: Market Failures, Monocultures, and Dead Kids (Oh My!)

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In <199703182356.XAA02032@mailhub.amaranth.com>, on 03/18/97 at 08:39 PM,
   Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:


>Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
>treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
>than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
>not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

>In many instances courts have stepped in to authorize blood transfusions
>for children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow Biblical injunctions not
>to "eat" blood (Gen. 9:4). Recently the Church of Christ Scientist [?] has
>been under societal and governmental attack for insisting on substituting
>healers for medical teams even in cases of children afflicted by cancer
>accompanied by apparently unbearable pain.

>Parents most certainly are not the only ones to determine the welfare of
>their children; society has assumed a significant role and typically moves
>to protect the child from the parents or from the _beliefs_ of the
>parents.

Just because the government subverts the RIGHTS of the parents does not
mean that the parents do not have those rights.

A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
"protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

I as a parent have the sole right to determine what religon to teach my
children, how to rase my children, how to teach my children, how to reward
my children and how to punish my children PERIOD.

Perhaps you should take your STATIST tendicies over to alt.hitler.fanclub
as they are quite out of place here.

"When the wants of society override the rights of the individule that
society must die" -- whgiii

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William H. Geiger III wrote:
>    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.

> A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).

As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
willing at several points to take a chance with the State.

Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
real incriminating evidence against the parents?

On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
is in question.

Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net> writes:

> William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >    Alec <camcc@abraxis.com> said:
> > >Not in every case do the parents have the right to determine what
> > >treatment shall be performed or whether it shall occur at all. More often
> > >than not the courts have allowed medical treatment for the child who is
> > >not able to consent to such treatment for himself.
> 
> > A parent is the sole person who has a *RIGHT* to determine the welfair of
> > their childern. You do not have that right, I do not have that right, the
> > government does not have that right. To beleive that the government should
> > "protect" a child from the beliefs of its parents is truly
> > FASISTS/COMMUNIST/STATIST (pick you flavor they are all the same <G>).
> 
> As a person who was once a child in a very unhappy home (5 kids,
> nobody talks to anyone else), I can testify that I would have been
> willing at several points to take a chance with the State.
> 
> Would it have helped or hurt more?  I believe that would have depended
> on knowing how much worse things would have gotten at home (some
> homes get worse, some get better, some stay the same), and just how
> bad it would have been under the State.  I think those are the issues,
> but how are you gonna predict which is worse, unless you have some
> real incriminating evidence against the parents?
> 
> On a related note, there's a valid point about the State raising
> kids being not only unnatural, but leading to bad things preparing
> the kids for a future statist society.  Just another factor as far
> as I'm concerned, when the life and safety of a defenseless child
> is in question.
> 

That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
just bad luck. I'm not at all arguing that having the state make choices
for children too young to make choices is better than having parents make
choices. There are plenty of examples of parents mistreating children in
ways that the state finds objections (e.g. having sex with one's children
used to be widely accepted in miswestern U.S. but is now frowned on) and
examples of state permitting what I consider severe abuse (e.g. in 18 and 19
century Italy many parents castrated their male children if they showed any
musical/singing talent - hoping they'd become male sopranos; or, u.s. parents
who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
(circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
(denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> That's a tough one, Dale. On one hand, if the kid is born to psychotic
> parents (or just stupid parents) and the trait is inherited, then it's
> better for the species as a whole if they mistreat the kid and possibly
> kill him. On the other hand the mistreatment may be due to the parent's
> environment and not be an inherited trait - that it's not the kid's fault,
> just bad luck.
> or, u.s. parents
> who indoctrinate their children with fables about "god"). Perhaps Jim Bell's
> assassination politics is the answer - you can abuse your children by commisis
> (circumcizing an infant, lying to them about "god" and Santa Claus) or omission
> (denying medical care or education) but you're running the risk of the kids
> growing up and taking out a contract on you. Cool.

Good points all.  I'd add that since society and standards are
evolving, and the state's negative influences are gaining along
with the positive ones, a goal of keeping the state at bay is a
good one to pursue.  One issue that concerns me, though, is the
kids' access to their own redresses. There was the kid who "divorced"
his parents, and probably other examples where kids have brought
third parties (other than government) between them and their parents.

I think this sort of thing has merit in some cases, but would likely
be exploited by Hillary types for bad.  If kids can (or will) have
more access to grievance-intermediaries, how can that be controlled,
just enough so it doesn't get out of hand (or has letting the genie
out of the bottle already lost the case for future parents)?