RE: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting

<RANT>

I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.

If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers. 

To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri) really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about. 

</RANT>

    Chris DiBona


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM [SMTP:dlv@bwalk.dm.com]
Sent:	Monday, May 19, 1997 4:30 AM
To:	cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:	Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail--We should avoid raidable, physical meeting

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> (Also, I suggest _physical_ Cypherpunks meetings not be held for the
> foreseeable future. I know I plan to skip them all. A gathering of "reputed
> information terrorists, who have openly discussed assassination markets, C4
> explosives, and the destabilization of democratic governments" would be too
> ripe a target for clowns like Reno, Freeh, and Kallstrom.)

The physical meetings I've been to were not worth the trip.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 9:14 AM -0800 5/19/97, Chris DiBona wrote:
><RANT>
>
>I couldn't disagree with you more Tim.
>
>If the FBI wants to come raid a Cypherpunk meeting and arrest me, they
>should be ready for a law suit that will make thier heads spin. I mean can
>you think of anything more protected by the first amendment than a bunch
>of hobbiest getting together to discuss math, for christs sakes? I know a
>couple of lawyers who would drool at the chance to defend someone who is
>lily white and is arrested for meeting and discussing prime numbers.
>
>To suggest the cessation of meetings (no matter how worthless Dimitri)
>really seems to me to be counter to everything this group is about.


Fine that you disagree. I think a lot of Feds would view a meeting of 40-50
people discussing assassination politics, violating U.S. export laws,
modifications of semi-automatic rifles to make them more effective in
counter-gov't-terrorism, etc, to be a "ripe target." Good for publicity on
the evening news.

(At the 20-30 meetings I have been at over the last almost 5 years, very
few of them have revolved around "discussing prime numbers.")

Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
license plate numbers.)

By all means, have meetings. I just intend to be in places where I can have
defensive weapons at the ready (which has been at some Cypherpunks physical
meetings, of course).

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:07 AM 5/19/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:

>Whether it stands up in court depends on the charges. As for you being
>willing to file a lawsuit that will make their heads spin, good for you.
>But to win a lawsuit, one has to have a case. And the laws are written
>broadly these days, and I doubt such a case would be won.

It might be hard to win lawsuits *against* the Feds although Steve Jackson 
Games did and other false arrest suits have succeeded.  The reverse of this
is 
that the Feds would have a very hard time winning a criminal case based on 
mass arrests at a Cypherpunks meeting.  They have lost loads of First 
Amendment busts over the years.  They have also lost the last few sedition 
cases they've brought even though the targets (white supremecists) were less 
popular than we would prove to be in court.  Many of us also have the 
intellectual and financial resources to mount an effective defense.  They 
would lose.

>(Did anything ever come of the police actions at the "2600" meetings in
>D.C. a few years back? I don't recall all of the details, but I gather the
>cops either moved in and made arrests, or maybe just watched and took down
>license plate numbers.)

Everything dismissed.  Just harrassment.  There were some actual arrests for 
tresspassing.  Cypherpunks meetings, however, are held with the permission of 
the building owners so such charges would fail in our case. 

I think the Feds case against JB is probably pretty weak.  Though we don't 
know the extent of his actions in the physical (as opposed to the spiritual) 
realm.  Arrests are frequently used to intimidate but dismissals or failure
to 
prosecute are very common in cases involving political dissent.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 5.0 beta
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM4CtQ4VO4r4sgSPhAQHHUQQAl0ksn2MMXYv/2qIPSscGjC9QmD+XrDPS
oNUYEERBZfWw1P6tcOaiUsu9p0r9zbGm+zoP8/2XwQBgvEcSQYrGJeAfO7BNEGe1
yH2DPPTiD8P5DtlcW9UI3OY5VMXVu3VR4TnwW4aCttLIPoq/eLqx6GwF/p/fa8Ye
A/xhFaCsLU4=
=O64h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----