Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!

At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
>(There are also a number
>of 
>psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
>things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
>are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)

Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
person.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

On Mon, May 19, 1997 at 12:14:37AM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> At 10:28 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote:
> >(There are also a number
> >of 
> >psychological studies that show that people will do all sorts of horrific 
> >things to their fellow man when someone in authority tells them to.  If they 
> >are led to believe that they are "bad" in some way, many will enjoy it.)
> 
> Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know it)
> electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving and
> could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the average
> person.

Present company excepted?  Of course, studies have shown a majority 
of Americans think they are better than average drivers...

The most important lesson of that study is that in this regard we
*all* are average persons.  There isn't any magic pill, or personality
trait, or belief system, or special knowledge, that makes us immune to
manipulation. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Lucky Green writes:

: Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
: Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
: it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
: and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
: demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
: average person. 

Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
from the population of any average midwestern town. 

He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 

Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
jackboots. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:

> Lucky Green writes:
> 
> : Right. I read a book on that. I think it was called "The Millgram
> : Experiment". Normal people would administer (fake, but they didn't know
> : it) electroshocks to a subject even after the subject had stopped moving
> : and could have been assumed to be unconscious or even dead. An excellent
> : demonstration of the power of authority. And the gullibility of the
> : average person. 
> 
> Stanley Millgram did quite a few experiments along such lines.  His
> conclusion after persuading quite ordinary people to administer what
> seemed to be fatal electric shocks to a subject, pressured only by the
> orders of an authority figure saying "The experiment must continue"  and
> other such phrases, was that should the United States wish to set up a
> system of Nazi style death camps, personnel to staff them could be taken
> from the population of any average midwestern town. 
> 
> He also did another interesting experiment called "prisoners and guards"
> in which he selected people at random and dressed them up in the
> appropriate uniforms.  The guards happily abused the prisoners, falling
> into the appropriate roles almost automatically. 
> 
> Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
> don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> jackboots. 


I recently came across a very similar incident on the Usenet newsgroup
alt.smokers.cigars.  (Disclaimer: I don't smoke, at least not cigars.)

In a nutshell, some business person came across this (pretty active)
newsgroup (he was not around when it was newgrouped and became pretty
active), declared it its property, and began to retromoderate it (i.e.
forge cancels for any traffic he didn't like).  He kept claiming that
he is some kind of "Usenet Administrator with Full Access". A couple
of searches in DejaNews will turn up plenty of amazing responses from
the regulars in the newsgroups bending over and baaing, "We're not
questioing Bob's authority as a Usenet Administrator, nor the way he
chooses to fuck us over..." Recommended reading.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
>that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
>ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
>jackboots.

I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
assertiokn.

Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
breaking some law?

Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments?

Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
action from his university?

Big differences.

Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

(And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
mayor attends S & M parties.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May writes:

: I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
: assertiokn. 

: Are you saying that if I were to announce such an exeriments at the next
: physical Cypherpunks meeting and ask for volunteers that I would be
: breaking some law? 

Such experiments require major deception on the part of the experimenter
towards the subject, and the experiments are likely to cause post
traumatic stress afterwards. 

This violates current ethical standards concerning informed consent and
freedom from risk to the subject which govern such experiments today. 

If you performed such an experiment on someone outside of current ethical
guidelines, there would be a queue of lawyers a mile long offering to help
the subject sue you after the fact.  It is not inconceivable that the
subject might convince the police to trump up some charges as well,
related to fraud or psychological torture. 

: Or are you saying instead that most university researchers are now unable
: to get grant money from the NSF and CIA to do such experiments? 

That too. 

: Or that any professor who publishes on such things may face disciplinary
: action from his university? 

You would probably be looking your next tenured position in Brazil. 

: Big differences.

: Insofar as I understand the law, so long as extreme physical torture is
: avoided, no laws cover such experiments. (Many religions are in fact
: organized along these lines, a la the Moonies, the Krishnas, etc.)

: (And extreme physical torture may also be legal, a la S & M and consenting
: sex practices, depending on one's jurisdiction. In San Francisco, even the
: mayor attends S & M parties.)

I think the deception aspect of the experiments would be the major cause
of hassles rather than the unpleasantness aspect.  On the other hand, I
believe there have been prosecutions for consensual S&M in a few
supposedly civilized places, like the UK.  I expect a screaming fag with
nipple pinching clothespins and a portable electro-ejaculator could
probably still get himself arrested domestically for plying his trade in
places like Cincinnati or the states of North Carolina, Tennessee, and
Utah. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $

Tim May wrote:
> 
> At 7:12 AM -0800 5/19/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
> 
> >Of course, such psychological experiments are banned today, because they
>                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >don't make it through the ethics committees.  Nonetheless they demonstrate
> >that there are few differences between "us" and "them," and that most
> >ordinary people will rise to the occasion when given a new pair of
> >jackboots.
> 
> I'm curious about the "such psychological experiments are banned today"
> assertiokn.

These experiments were mostly done at Stanford.

After the unbelievable scandal with the jail experiment (which, to my
knowledge, involved physical injuries), Stanford Board forbade any
experiments done without the approval of a special ethics councel.

Many other universities followed.

(please correct me if i am mistaken)

	- Igor.