Re: "You have the right to remain silent"

Tim May wrote:

> The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much
> is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not
> required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent
> parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say
> nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are
> involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.)

  The noncooperation of the Ramseys does not reflect on their guilt or
innocence, but on the fact that they have an excellent lawyer. People
who have average lawyers, or even good ones, have a much greater chance
of being convicted of a crime that they did not commit.
  When the police interview you, they have information or evidence that
you and your lawyer aren't aware of. Their job is to get you to make
statements that can be used against you in the future if you are charged
with a crime. They attempt to lead you into making an innocent statement
such as, "I eat eggs sometimes." and the next thing you know you are in
court with a prosecutor repeating it and pointing at you accusingly.

  The fact of the matter is that guilt or innocence is no longer decided
on real evidence, for the most part. *Circumstantial* evidence rules the
roost, and it has been perverted to become a battle of which lawyer can
spin the most convincing tale around indefinite evidence.
  So you go to jail because you drive a red truck, smoke camels and own
a pair of brown socks (despite the fact that all of the witnesses
described someone who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier).

  How is this crypto relevant? It is yet another symptom of why we are 
losing our privacy and our freedom.
  The Ramseys should live in a world where they can put trust in their
government and tell them everything that might remotely help find their
child's murderer, instead of unjustly ending up on the chopping block 
themselves. Cypherpunks should live in a world where they can share
their logs with the government to help them catch a child murderer and
know that their cooperation will not be used to abuse themself or others
who use the remailers.
  What about the cooperation of Jim Bell's friends. The newspapers
report that his friends say they talked about this or that in a
joking manner (or somesuch innocuous way), but you can bet your
bottom dollar that this is not mentioned on the application for
an arrest warrant. When the police interview you and ask you if
you plan to kill the president, answer, "Yes. When pigs fly."
Which part of your statement will they neglect to mention when
they file the charges against you? (Take a wild guess on this
one.)

  If you have joined in the discussion of the AP Bot, then I hope
that you saved *all* of your posts, because the government will
be introducing the ones where you described a possible implementation
but not the posts where you described the system as unfeasible and
unrealistic.
  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't
have been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and
perverted to support Bell's persecution.

TruthMonger

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At 08:46 AM 5/22/97 -0500, Willaim H. Geiger III wrote:

>1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
>the police in a criminal investegation.
>
>2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
>found.

I'm always amazed at the large number of people who don't know that you don't 
have to talk to the cops.  It's not just the 5th Amendment BTW.  You don't 
have to talk to them because you don't have to talk to anybody.  

Cops can give you orders to do certain things when you're out in public
(stop, 
turn left, etc.).  They can't order you to do things outside the limited
scope 
of vehicle and crowd management.  They can't order you to give them $20 and 
they can't order you to talk to them.  They can arrest you with probable
cause 
and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation.  They can ask you for 
your name and you may have to supply it, but that's about it.  If you're 
operating a motor vehicle, they can ask you for ID.  Not too much else.

Since cops are not judges, they can't order you to do things outside of the 
above.  You may be compelled to testify in court or at other sorts of 
hearings, but you *never* have to talk to cops.  And you never should unless 
you're asking them for help of some kind.

DCF

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In <199705221229.IAA20553@dhp.com>, on 05/22/97 
   at 06:29 AM, lucifer@dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) said:

>  If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't have
>been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and perverted to
>support Bell's persecution.

Absolutly,

Tell the bastards nothing but name rank and SS#.

Last month a local conservitive talk radio host was bemoning the fact the
the Ramsey's were not cooperating with the police and why the police
couldn't just go down and make them talk to them. I called in and he was
quite shocked when I explained that:

1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to
the police in a criminal investegation.

2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was
found.

3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a
murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are
commited by strangers and this figure is incresing.

4) He really should have known better. :)


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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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