Re: Disinformation in L.A.

At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 

Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.



-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred

   "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
    violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>Swinestein is.)

FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony. 


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

At 9:14 PM -0800 5/13/97, Lucky Green wrote:
>At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
>>month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
>>Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill.
>
>Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
>ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.
>

Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
Swinestein is.)

We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
drifts of new laws.

As others have noted, recently James Donald, the lawmakers play the "good
cop, bad cop" game very well. Crypto becomes exportable (good cop), but
only if keys are given to the government (bad cop). Speech is ostensibly
protected by new laws, but new provisions criminalize racist, homophobic,
disrespectful, hurtful, offensive, or unpopular opinions.

The "there ought to be a law" crowd is in high gear.

The only proper rebuttal is to reject their view that more laws will fix
the societal ills they perceive.

Attempting to "work with them" only feeds the good cop/bad cop system, as
the SAFE and Pro-CODE bills show.

Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
remains an option.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

>
>We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>drifts of new laws.
>
...
>
>Removing the Washington area as a malignant tumor requiring drastic surgery
>remains an option.
>

another counterTCMeme for the crowd here-- where else do you give
away vast sums of your cash and refuse to exercise any authority
over how it is spent?

this is the situation we find ourselves in our country. we have
vast sums of money automatically withheld from our paychecks,
yet the public has consistently refused to hold the government
accountable for what it does with the money.

the question is not "how do we hold the government accountable for
our cash" but, "*when* will we"?

again, TCM's total withdrawal is obviously not a solution.

anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

perhaps that US government is a waste of time and effort.
but anyone who sends their cash to it are supporting it.
by withdrawing and still sending your cash, you have put
yourself in the worst possible position, the one that
the US Govt parasites would prefer above all others.

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

R.A.:
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
during WWII as I understand it.

is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
its destruction.

T.M.:
>As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
>thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
>it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

just out of curiosity timmy, what would you think is more likely?

>> ok truthmonger, after someone has stolen your money, do you
>> report it to the police, or do you just sit around and
>> curse the evildoer? what is your response when your money
>> is stolen?
>
>  I kiss it goodbye and forget about it.

oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
why their money was stolen.

1. who is the person who stole my money?
2. why did they steal it?
3. what could prevent it from being stolen?
4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?


government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
build something without putting thought and labor into it.
I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
is no system at all).

truthmonger:
>I've lost a few thousand dollars worth of goods to thieves,
>but criminal cops have cost me tens of thousands of dollars in
>the legal system.
>

what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
but many people did this? would the government change? would they
shoot you?


I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
not the solution.

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> R.A.:
> >You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It 
> >gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come 
> >April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of 
> >it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.
> 
> right. and those who do nothing to change this, certainly can't expect
> that it will ever change.  but in fact it *has* changed before. it
> wasn't always the case that money was withhold. this law was introduced
> during WWII as I understand it.

Of course.  That would be the perfect time for it.  Martial Law and all 
that.  Oppose it and you get thrown in jail...  or labeled a spy or 
something...  What else is new?  Declare martial law, then put the screws 
in.  Once in place they're almost imposible to remove without leaking 
loads of blood.
 
> is it true that something that can be done cannot be undone? or can
> the withholding tax be undone just as it was done? a certain amount
> of energy was expended in creating the situation that we find ourselves
> in-- decades of entrenchment. I submit that exactly the same amount
> of energy applied to the problem can *undo* it. it's a simple concept
> of conservation of energy. granted, a lot of energy is involved, I don't
> deny that. but *no* energy will get you absolutely nowhere. 

Welp, go for it.  Do whatever you think is appropriate to undo the law.  
I'd bet the people will agree with you, but the political scum that is, 
will not, nor is it likely that the media will allow you to speak your 
words. More likely weird allegations of child molestation, drug abuse, 
and plans of A.P. will "leak" out, and possibly a Jim Bell style raid on 
your house. :)  Asking your kongress kritter to undo this law is unlikely 
to result in much more than laughter.  So where does that leave you?

> what others are claiming is that no amount of energy will change
> anything, so why bother? indeed, why bother with your life at all?
> perhaps suicide is the easiest and ultimate solution for people who
> think this way. there are things in your life that you think you
> can change, right? why is the tax system not included in that category?
> I agree, one person cannot change the system. do not give me examples
> where one person failed. this is conservation of peoplehood; if many
> people were involved in its creation, than many must be involved in
> its destruction.

*Burp* Sorry, I'm too busy with living my life to do a Heaven's Gate 
special. :)  Since the money is taken out before we even see it, most 
people won't fight it, since it is already gone.

Well, then organize the many to do something if that is your wish.  
Nothing is holding you back.

I myself consult out.  Consulting out means that the money isn't taken 
out at all.  You just have to pay it back come April 15.  Day job, being 
a full time job, money gets taken out automagically by the evil agents 
of the IRS critters.  Consulting money, come the 1099 form, gets taxed 
after.

So even if you manage to upturn this law and get to keep the money until 
April 15, it wouldn't affect me much.  IMHO it's much easier if the money 
gets withheld, then having to pull hairs out doing tax forms come April.

Now if you can somehow repeal income tax, that would be a useful 
achievement. :)

I'm not opposed to taxes.  I'm opposed to their use without my say.  That 
is I want to tell Uncle Sam where the money goes.  If I decide my 30% 
that they chop out goes to the next stealth bomber, then that is where 
it should go.  If I say it should go to the schools, then that is where 
it should go, etc.  You think them kongress kritters will accept such a 
thing?  And no, not one cent of my "voluntary" contribution would go to 
kongress, were I to have it my way.  Hell, if I could even decide on 1/2 
of that, it would still be progress.

IMHO, this is nothing but a pipe dream, and I don't have any interest in 
politics.  I've too many other concerns to deal with.

But do whatever you feel is appropriate.  That in a nutshell was my 
opinion.  *Burp*

> oh really? here are some questions that anyone can ask about
> why their money was stolen.
> 
> 1. who is the person who stole my money?

In the case of taxes, Uncle Sam

> 2. why did they steal it?

For a billion things such as stealth bombers, for kogress salaries, for
bullets, for $3K military issue toilets that will survive nuke blasts, roads,
toll bridges, tax forms, black budget stuff, shipments to other countries,
jails, new draconian laws, bribe money, money to pay the prostitutes at the
congressional parties, "Just Say No" anti drug campains, trading coke for
guns, etc, etc, etc... 

> 3. what could prevent it from being stolen?

Welp, that's simple.  Quit your job and become homeless.  If you don't 
produce any money, they can't take any away from you.  They certainly 
can't put you in jail for it, and hell if they do, guess what, you get 
free food and a free place to sleep, and a big boyfriend named 'Bubba to 
keep you warm and fuzzy at night.

> 4. what can I do to protect my money from being stolen?

Work for the mob or something equally salacious, or get paid in cash and 
say you're unemployed, then go on welfare while you work, etc...

> government construction is an *engineering* problem. you cannot
> build something without putting thought and labor into it.
> I believe that if cpunks put their mind to it, they could create
> a better system than we now have-- and it wouldn't be anarchy (which
> is no system at all).

So put your mind to it and do something about it instead of yapping 
about it to us.  We don't give a shit.  If we did, we would have done 
something about it already.
 
> what if you showed up on the doorstep of a politician of your choice
> who you thought was stealing money from you? what if not only you
> but many people did this? would the government change? would they
> shoot you?

A few years back, the men in white would be called with a padded wagon, or
more likely today the jack booted ATF (ex BATFuck) men with guns and 
walkie talkies.
 
> I don't buy into the alienation and cynicism on this list peddled
> by TCM, truthmonger, et.al., and I suggest that anyone else who
> does is selling themself short, and in fact part of the problem and
> not the solution.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate"  --
whomever.. Say, whatever you've been smoking, care to share it with us?  We
could use some I'm sure... 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "Boy meets beer.  Boy drinks Beer,     |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|        Boy gets another beer!"         |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |                                        |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.

They just want their own federal reserve notes back - Render unto
Caesar... But to the original point:

Then so is anyone who gives money to an armed robber who offers the
alternatives of payment or bodily harm.  It is a voluntary decision to
give money to the robber instead of letting him remove it from your
corpse.  His weapon gives him power without authority, and you (or your
survivors) appeal to the legitimage authority of the police to address the
situation. 

China has a government.  Is everything it does to its citizens legitimate? 
If so, why - is it might makes right?  If not, what is unique about the US
government being a mixture of a little democracy and a lot of bureaucracy
that makes any act by any agent legitimate?

At 7:10 PM -0800 5/16/97, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:
>
>> anyone who disbelieves in the authority of the US government
>> yet sends them their tax money is a hypocrite.
>
>You seem to be misinformed.  You don't send your money to Uncle Sam.  It
>gets taken out of every pay check before you even see it.   Then, come
>April 15, you fill a piece of paper out with the hope you'll get some of
>it back.  But sometimes, Uncle Sam takes even more.

Actually, Larry is right. At least in my case, and that of many I know, I
send _them_ the money, it is not withheld in any way. I have to consciously
write them out a check (or several) for their blood money.

As for my being hypocritical, Detweiler is free to think whatever he
thinks. If and when I go down in a shootout with the fascists, I expect
it'll be over something more dramatic than not paying my taxes.

(And not paying taxes merely starts a long, multi-year process. If they
even figure out I haven't been filing and paying, a long period of letters,
warnings, and seizure proceedings starts. Although I gather it was a tax
dispute that got the IRS interested in Jim Bell and, thus, the eventual
raid on his house. I'll take this into consideration.)

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 5:22 PM -0800 5/15/97, Greg Broiles wrote:
>At 09:13 AM 5/14/97 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>>Feinswine/Swinestein is the most despicable of all the politicians in
>>Congress. (This is not just ideology speaking...her usual-ally Barbara
>>Boxer is much less swinish, and even has some independent thoughts. I can't
>>see I often agree with Boxer, but she's not the Big Sister automaton that
>>Swinestein is.)
>
>FYI, Boxer is now (as of 5/12/97) a cosponsor of Sen. Leahy's ECPA/1997
>(Encrypted Communications  Privacy Act of 1997) - that's the bill with the
>complex structure for "voluntary" key recovery and criminal penalties for
>use of crypto  "in furtherance of" felony.
>

As I said, I am no ideological ally of Boxer. Her style is less swinish, to
my way of thinking, than Feinstein's is.

(In much the same way I find Stewart Baker, formerly of the NSA, less
irritating than Dorothy Denning, though of course Baker is proably more
dangerous than Denning.)

Both Boxer and Feinstein are ideological peas in a pod, of course.
Stylistically, and perhaps as human beings, they are far apart.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim wrote:

> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
> drifts of new laws.

Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:

     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.
     
     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

-Declan

At 9:25 PM -0800 5/14/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>
>> We're basically under assault from all directions. The bozos in Congress
>> and state governments are spinning out new laws and obscure regulations
>> faster than we can react...and of course they're using our money to
>> generate these laws and lobby for them. Further, a mostly-brainwashed
>> Washington media population is surprising uncritical of these blizzard
>> drifts of new laws.
>
>Hmmm... Do I get counted in the "mostly-brainwashed" category?

No point in naming names. Nearly all reporters covering Washington are
essentially "policy wonks" (a term I hate, but it's the jargon du jour).

They lose sight of the forest for the trees. Further, nearly all news
outlets--the newsweekies, the newspapers, the broadcast networks--want
reporters to be somewhat neutral. (Which I don't necessarily disagree
with...but it explains why only the most wonkish and "lost in the trees"
reporters can tolerate and thrive in a Washington environment.

(Declan knows all this, of course, so I'm not teaching him how to suck eggs.)

Any reasonable person, whether leftist, rightist, libertarian, or whatever,
would respond to the long boring negotiations over bills--the soporific
markup Declan described, for example--with a cry of "I'm mad as hell and
I'm not going to take it anymore."

Those who tolerate and thrive in Washington thus must think the "political"
issues, the backroom deals, the wheelings and dealings, are worth the
boredom.

This is why I call them brainwashed. A better term might be "born
compromisers."

By the way, nothing I saw in the latest version of SAFE is acceptable. And
I agree with Declan that it will only get worse. The NSA and FBI will lean
on Hyde, on the International Relations committee, and the final version
will have murky language about legitimate needs of law enforcement, key
recovery, etc.

And there is zero chance that arbitrarily strong crypto will be freely
exportable.

Result? Americans as a whole gain no freedoms not already implicit in the
Constitution, pernicious language takes away some existing guaranteed
freedoms, NSA gets it wish to control exports, and key recovery is given a
boost.



>FYI, here are two bills that Feinstein introduced recently:
>
>     S. 504. Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment Act
>     of 1997. Prohibits the sale of personal information about children
>     without their parents' consent. Introduced by Feinstein (D-CA) on
>     3/20/97. Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

>From what I read here, another statist law. If I come into information
legally (scenarios left as an exercise for the reader), it is mine to sell,
give away, or do with as I please. Period. Crap about "parental
empowerment" is just a smokescreen. If parents or children wish to protect
certain information, let them not provide it. ("Remember Johnnie, if a man
comes up to you and says he's from Child Protective Services and he wants
to ask you a few questions, what did I tell you to say to him?" "You mean,
'Fuck off, fascist narc!'?" "Good, Johnnie, good.")

>     S. 600. Personal Information Privacy Act of 1997. Amends FCRA to
>     prohibit sale on non-public information, prohibits use of SSN as ID
>     number, limits use of SSN on drivers liscenses. Introduced by
>     Feinstein (D-CA) on 4/16/97. Referred to the Committee on Finance.

This sounds OK, as I hate being required by law to give my SS number to so
many. (In California it's required for car registration...my SS card says
plainly "Not to be used for identification," but this is ignored.)

But I fear it makes little difference. The SS number is already so widely
linked in data bases that it can be easily found. (Income tax forms are
sent to mailing addresses with the SS number prominently in the upper
right-hand corner of the damned mailing label!!!!)

Swinestein is in general a hopeless case, one who should be retired from
government office with extreme prejudice.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> At 12:19 PM 5/11/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >You might remember I wrote recently about the DoJ report released this
> >month that calls for new legislation to ban bomb-making info online. Now
> >Feinstein's office tells me she's going to introduce a bill. 
> 
> Feinswine never saw a gun/mind control bill she didn't like. She is an
> ultra fascist that rose to power thanks to the yellow dog Bay Area voters.

Give credit where it's due.  She really owes a debt to the assassin Dan 
White, without whom she'd probably still be a lowly Supervisor.

rgds-- TA  (tallard@frb.gov)
I don't speak for the Federal Reserve Board, it doesn't speak for me.
pgp fingerprint: 10 49 F5 24 F1 D9 A7 D6  DE 14 25 C8 C0 E2 57 9D