Compelling a key (fwd)

Hi Tim,

And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:33:35 -0800
> From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
> Subject: Compelling a key

> >> Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key,
> >>
> >> and order you to tell them the key ?
> >> If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ?
> >
> >If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and
> >were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be
> >held in contempt until you were very old and gray.
> 
> Not necessarily. Mike Godwin, and others, have written about the
> "compelling of keys." It is by no means clear that a key can be compelled.
> Citing the Fifth is one approach, saying one "forgot" is another.

Citing the 5th ONLY works if no immunity from prosecution for the results
is offered. If the judge offers and you refuse, don't worry about buying
toothpaste for many years.

Saying you 'forgot' will not keep you out of jail on contempt. It might
buy you sympathy from the jury but then again, they have nothing to say
about contempt charges.

> As to being held indefinitely, imprisonment as an inducement to cooperation
> has limits. (I just saw a spiel by Alan Dershowitz and others on this
> tonight, vis-a-vis how long Susan McDougal can be imprisoned for contempt
> in the Whitewater investigation.)
> 
> Basically, only until there is no reasonable expectation that the contempt
> will be satisfied (or whatever the exact term is).
>
> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.

Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
sit in jail on contempt.

The only way you would get out in that case would be to file with the
appropriate courts for a writ of habeas corpus.

                                                  Jim Choate
                                                  CyberTects
                                                  ravage@ssz.com

At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
>Hi Tim,
>
>And here I was believing your speal about being in your kill file, oh well.
>It must be true that nothing is sacred.

Before I even look at the rest of your message, let me make my filtering
policy clear: I freely move people into my filter file, which puts their
messages in my Eudora trash file. These messages are still viewable, unless
I have issued the "Empty Trash" command.

When volumes are low, or I have spare time and/or curiosity, I can look
into the  Trash folder to see what has accumulated. Usually its a lot of
crap from Vulis, and from his shadow, Graham John-Bullers, etc..

Sometimes I move names out of this filter file. "Random reinforcement,"
where they never know whether I'm reading their messages or not, has some
advantages.

(I did this with Kent Crispin just recently.)

On to your message:


>> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
>> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
>> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
>> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
>
>Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
>citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
>have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
>of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
>sit in jail on contempt.


Agreed.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman
> >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and
> >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately
> >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating.
> >
> >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt
> >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I
> >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute
> >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can
> >sit in jail on contempt.

One correction.  She was released by a special law passed by the house of
representatives after a media blitz about her case.  The law only let her
go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in
contempt.  It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some
outcry without doing any real reform