War & InfoWar

Blanc wrote:

> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
> only be cured with a few megatons of
> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
> 
> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
> the wrong place at the wrong time.

  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
while others may have different definitions.
  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
all seemed to be in order}.)

  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
at OK city innocent bystanders?
  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
to the inevitable?
  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
for the lives of their citizens.
  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.

> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.

  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
government oppression. The government protects those participating
in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
That is between himself and his conscience.
  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
a murderer of men, women and children.
  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
government duplicity involved in the police action?

  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
against the citizens.
  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
there are ample examples of this in history.)

  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

TruthMonger

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


In <199705110311.VAA20026@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>, on 05/10/97 at 09:15 PM,
   TruthMonger <tm@dev.null> said:


>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being a known
>target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of a daycare center
>there was the equivalent of military forces who cowardly advance with
>women and children in front of them. (And there are ample examples of this
>in history.)

Well I think that the FTA's storing of explosives in their offices should
be a clear example of how concerned they were over the safety & welfair of
the rest of those sharing the building with them.

As far as the rest of the post all I can say is that I beleive that their
is a very special place in Hell for those in our government right next
those who let them gain control.

I woun't even discuss the place awaiting those who think what they do is a
"good thing" (Kent) as childern may inadvertantly read this post.

- -- 
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At 09:15 PM 5/10/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Blanc wrote:
>
>> Lately Tim has been making extremely dramatic death statements:   "Kill
>> them all...they are unworthy of life.", "... I
>> pray for the deaths of these criminals.",  "Washington is a cancer than can
>> only be cured with a few megatons of
>> nuclear disinfectant.", "May they all be vaporized.", etc.
>> 
>> These are definitely dark in mood and understandable; I also have violently
>> negative & despairing emotions about these people.   I just wouldn't ever
>> think of involving those who are innocent bystanders and happened to be in
>> the wrong place at the wrong time.
>
>  Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
>while others may have different definitions.
>  Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
>the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
>innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
>only shoot back at those who are there willingly?
>  How about those who willingly process and uphold the atrocities
>which the government commits upon its citizens? (Those who don't turn
>on the gas, but merely put them in the ovens {because the paperwork
>all seemed to be in order}.)
>
>  Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
>at OK city innocent bystanders?
>  Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
>in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
>paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
>hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
>there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
>to the inevitable?
>  History bulges with examples of governments using their citizens
>as human shields by placing armament factories in residential areas
>and there are a multitude of other examples of government disregard
>for the lives of their citizens.
>  The government has prosecuted dozens of individuals for planning
>to bomb the OK city Federal Building (including executed murderers).
>It has long been listed as a target of choice for anti-government
>paramilitarists. For the government to deny culpability in children
>being present at the bombing reeks of hypocrisy.
>
>> I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
>> expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
>> caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
>> actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
>
>  The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
>on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
>laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
>government oppression. The government protects those participating
>in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>  The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
>of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
>of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
>made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.
>
>  Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
>because "innocent" lives would be lost? Should the French Freedom
>fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
>because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?
>  Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
>hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
>citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
>people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
>wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
>and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.
>
>  While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
>an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
>That is between himself and his conscience.
>  Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
>over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
>do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
>their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
>a murderer of men, women and children.
>  How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
>they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
>vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
>government duplicity involved in the police action?
>
>  Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
>their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
>in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
>against the citizens.
>  Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
>a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
>a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
>cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
>there are ample examples of this in history.)
>
>  Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
>individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
>not outraged enough to stop their oppression.
>  The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
>of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
>no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.
>  This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
>will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
>the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
>the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.
>
>TruthMonger
>
>
Citizens used to not take any of the government's crap.  After the
revolutionary war, if the governemt so much as wiped their asses sideways
without the citizens approval, people would let them know, vehemently.
Citizens need to do this more often.

On Sat, 10 May 1997, TruthMonger wrote:

>   Of course, you have your own definintion of innocenent bystanders,
> while others may have different definitions.

This is certainly the case, but we must be careful not to extend this and 
say that the actual "according to hoyle" definition of innocence is 
subjective.

Certainly I believe that most of the group the media refer to as 
"innocent bystanders" are criminals in a true sense. In fact, I would go 
so far as to say that less than 1 in a thousand of these people are 
probably *idealogically* pure but we must be careful about allowing 
ourselves any notion of thought crime.

>   Is someone who is in the military because of forced enscription at
> the point of a gun (with threats of imprisonment if they refuse) an 
> innocent bystander? When an invading force attacks your home, do you
> only shoot back at those who are there willingly?

Absoltely, I believe that those who allow themselves to be threatened and 
coereced into joining the military because of enscription are criminal, 
because they allow their own cowardice to control them. They make a 
choice to save their own ass by participating in immoral violent acts by 
a government which believes it has rights over it`s citizens lives and 
freedoms. 

Question: Where does the US prescedent for military conscription come from?
	  Is there nothing in the constitution which could have been used
	  in a legal challenge?

>   Were the children in the daycare center at the Federal Building
> at OK city innocent bystanders?

More than likely they were, had they lived another 10 or 20 years they 
probably would have been corrupted and brainwashed like all the other paeons.

>   Then why, pray tell, did the government allow them to be placed
> in a building which was known to be a prime target of anti-government
> paramilitary idealists? Were they being used as a "shield" in the
> hopes that their presence would protect the others? Or were they
> there in order to provide sensational fodder for government response
> to the inevitable?

Media fodder would be my guess, there are a number of other reasons but 
sensation fodder shows through in most cases. It is observable within the 
UK that hospitals and schools are often placed close to government 
buildings, eg. In London there is a hospital directly opposite the houses 
of parliament.

> > I know that critical times call for critical action, but I just don't
> > expect from anarchist libertarian cypherpunks that they would "throw
> > caution to the wind" (so to speak) and forget how to think about events and
> > actions in terms of specifics and utter precision.
> 
>   The fact of the matter is that the government has declared war
> on the freedom and liberty of its citizens and passed draconian
> laws which prevent citizens from defending themselves from 
> government oppression. The government protects those participating
> in its crimes from having to pay a price for their complicity.
>   The government has a ruinous effect on the lives of millions
> of its citizens daily and is responsible for a mountain of deaths
> of "innocent people." Those taking part in the process should be
> made aware that there is a price to pay for their actions.

As I have said I can understand the sentiment behind it, but I have 
several problems with Tim`s "It`s war, innocents die" line, the biggest 
being that for me the defining principle of anarchism is that all crimes 
and all acts are considered alone in relation to the NAP. If I kill one 
genuinely innocent person during a bombing where I kill say 300 MPs I 
have still commited murder and should be treated as such. I`m sure, if I 
were given that chance, I would definitely be tempted to kill the 
innocent to get the criminals but this is merely untempered illogical 
emotion, I would not be worthy of any respect or credibility whatsoever 
if I took that choice and disregarded the rights of the innocent bystander.

>   Should the Allied war against Nazi Germany have not taken place
> because "innocent" lives would be lost? 

Correct, the German people, along with the people of all the allied 
nations, should have turned their armies against their governments and 
ended the notion of state in the western world, the other countries of 
the world would soon have followed suit. Sure, you can say "but after 
the fact, once the war was underway, what was the right thing to do?"
to which I would answer that a. The situation was created by the 
cowardly action of the people in failing to remove their government.
and b. The actions taken were wrong because removal of the german
government directly by its people would not have resulted in the deaths
of thousands of innocent people. 

> Should the French Freedom
> fighters not have fought to free their country from occupation
> because "innocent bystanders" would die in the process?

Certainly, if one is defending ones rights, and an innocent bystander 
gets killed in the process it is a natural reaction to think of yourself 
as innocent. This is the wrong reaction to have. People on this list seem 
to be gravitating towards the school of thought the government allies 
itself with, that is, "the greater good". Replacing one evil with a 
lesser evil is, although preferable to the status quo, not the anser. War 
is not a natural state to be in and difficult choices have to be made, 
among these is the question of how many innocents have to die to protect 
the rights of the many, I am not a pragmatist and, although it is 
unrealistic, would take a pacifist point of view here in that I would
say all war is criminal and I find it very hard, although it is of course
a logical necessity, to decide in favour of "the greater good".

>   Timothy McVeigh's position in history will likely belong in the
> hands of the winner of the war between the government and its
> citizens, but he is already considered a freedom fighter by more
> people than the government would like to admit. He has issued a
> wake-up call for those who think that they can remain nameless 
> and faceless in their complicity with government atrocities.

Yes, the more we get the message over that complying with the evil 
actions of criminals is a crime in itself, and that those who do so will 
be executed, the quicker the thugs will learn the evil of their actions.

>   While I would have chosen a different approach and target for
> an attack, I will not pass moral judgement on McVeigh's actions.
> That is between himself and his conscience.

I think one must pass judgement, Tim McVeigh`s actions were criminal and 
deplorable, but his motives were totally right, however, just as we do 
not believe in thought crime we should not believe that having the right 
motives absolves one from blame in the commision of a crime. This is why, 
judging entirely on the act itself, I would say McVeigh is a criminal, 
whether he was acting for the right reasons or not. 

>   Tim McVeigh at least had the fortitude to act on his outrage
> over what he perceived as government injustice. What did others
> do over the outrageous tragedy at Waco? Mostly they just turned
> their heads away and tried to pretend that our government is not
> a murderer of men, women and children.

Quite, people have been brow beaten and brainwashed into believing the 
violent actions of the state are justifiable, but any action they take 
themselves is criminal and wrong. For example, the truncheon wielding 
government rent-boys (for all state employees are moral prostitutes) can 
lock me in a cell and deny me basic freedoms because of what substances I 
choose to put into my own body, yet in the UK one cannot even carry a 
weapon to defend oneself against attack (For example, if someone were to 
break into my house, and I were to either shoot him or take a baseball 
bat to him, I would be prosecuted for murder or for assult).

Tim McVeigh maybe had the fortitude to act on his feelings, this does 
not mean those actions were justifiable merely by the fact they
were done out of convictions rather than greed. To return once again
to a recent topic on this list Nietzsche put it very well when he said
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies". From
this I also derive my own view that poloticians who genuinely believe
they are acting in the interest of the people are more dangerous
than those who act merely for financial gain or gain in prestige
and control (the will to power).

Whether Tim McVeigh`s actions showed a strength of conviction or not,
they certainly showed a moral and ethical weakness in that he 
justified the murder of innocents by the necessity to remove government
officials from power. 

You might notice I seem to be contradicting myself here, this is because
I am. I really have great problems in coming to a definitive personal
decision over questions of morality and ethics in a war situation. 
Maybe this shows a moral weakness on my part, maybe I am not sure of 
my own morality, but I think a little indecision is a good thing: it
ensures that one is always thinking and never acting on a prejudice.

>   How many government employees quit in outrage, stating that
> they would not take part in such atrocities? How many took a
> vocal moral stand against their superiors, or exposed the
> government duplicity involved in the police action?

They are all whores, so I suggest we fuck them like whores.


>   Nobody who turns their head is "innocent" and they cannot avoid
> their own responsibility if they choose to place their children
> in the line of fire as a result of their participation in crimes
> against the citizens.

Yes, they were naive, but I don`t believe for a moment they commited any 
crime, Tim McVeigh commited the crime. It is one thing to be negligent 
and through that negligence allow innocent people to be killed, it is 
quite another to actively participate in a system which persecutes and 
murders and fail to look at the evil in front of your eyes.


>   Given the wide knowledge of the OK city Federal Building being
> a known target of anti-government forces, I think the placing of
> a daycare center there was the equivalent of military forces who
> cowardly advance with women and children in front of them. (And
> there are ample examples of this in history.)

Yes, but this military did not force the innocent children to be there, 
it possibly spread disinformation and propoganda which convinced the 
parents that their children were safe in the building, the parents were 
naive and overtrusting if they believed this, but the only criminal 
was McVeigh in this particular instance.


>   Those in government express outrage at the barbarity of an
> individual citizen attacking his oppressors, but apparently are
> not outraged enough to stop their oppression.

Quite, their logic is flawed because they have been brainwashed, it is a 
sad fact that many of these criminals are merely stupid or conformist.

>   The fact is that we have a police state whose power and abuse
> of power are growing by leaps and bounds because there has been
> no realistic amount of accountability attached to their actions.

The only level of accountability acceptable is for any member of the 
state to be immediately executed on the spot for the commision of any 
crime.

>   This is an unnatural state of affairs and one that human nature
> will correct. When things become too far out of balance, then
> the universal laws of nature correct the situation. I believe that
> the dinosaurs learned this lesson, as well.

So will the state, when, in the words of Tim May, they are "cleansed in 
the nuclear fire".


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