RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....

<rant>

Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
our system works.

Yes there are flaws in the system.

Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.

Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
ass. Or not.

So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
_happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :

<>
As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
to
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
children.
<>

Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
really
think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
 is
on the same plane.

To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
across....

Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
the
PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
did it.
But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
Do you
understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
reason.
Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
were on acid
when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
you have
children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
children
who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
radius or
shooting range of :

A government office.
A large corporations headquarters.
A law firm.
A post office.
A town square.
A restaurant.
A bank.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
safe place.

You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
and read
over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
ONLY) to
come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
reason,
had a prefrontal.

To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
mention it
is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :

For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

	Chris DiBona

</rant>

At 1:03 AM -0700 6/5/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
>a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>who also gets along well with a host of people.

Another absurdity. Clinton is the President. There is _nothing_ of any
significance Intel has ever sought from the government. Except for the
government to get off its back.

When I was there the government was in fact very frustrated with Intel for
not entering the "mil-spec" market in any serious way. The government
wanted to buy 8080s, 8086s, etc., and we said, "Fine, send us an order.
We'll even charge you $500 more per chip if you want us to shake them
around at a lot of Gs, cook 'em in a pressure pot, and then stamp them
"MIL-SPEC."

We refused government contracts. I did some volunteer work (a few days) for
them on directed energy weapons, some work for DARPA and the Naval Research
Lab, but there was no charge for this, and certainly no "help" for Intel
from the then-President.

Intel also was a reluctant participant in the g-job labs, including the MCC
in Austin (never a real member), and only in the last few years has it
bowed to the inevitable by undertaking some joint efforts with the labs it
has so heavily been taxed for.

To call this "help from Clinton" is absurd.

(By the way, Andy Grove and Gordon Moore were supporters of Bush in '92 and
of Dole in '96. They actively opposed the "Clinton-friendly lobby" in the
Valley, the John Sculleys and whatnot who hobnobbed with Clinton. Clinton
I'm sure does not see Intel as his ally in any way.)

More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

---Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised?

Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent KKKrispin.

[It worked with SternFUD :-) ]

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

<sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that
day. They did nothing to warn the occupants of the building.

This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
children.

The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).

A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
doing it.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> <sigh> If you don't want your children to get blown up don't put them in
> harms way. The government *KNEW* that this building was the target of
> numerious groups. They especially knew that it was a major risk on that

Looks like I was right after all.

> This is no different than palcing a daycare center in a munition factory
> durring a time of war and then blaming the bomber pilots for blowing up
> children.
> 
> The Judge of the McVeigh case said himself in his instructions to the jury
> that there was no evidence that McVeigh knew of the day care center in the
> building. McVeigh was going after the ATF agents in the building (all of
> which were conviently gone at the time of the bombing).
> 
> A just where were your tears for the children that were burned alive by
> the ATF in Waco or the children of Weaver guned down by sinpers at Ruby
> Ridge? I guess it only ok to kill children if it's the Federal Government
> doing it.
> 
> - --
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
> William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
> Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
> 
> Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
> PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
> OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------
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On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> Do these children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :

[list of public places elided]

Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
building is criminally stupid.

Some on this list will even 
say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.


--Lucky

Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> writes:
> Some on this list will even
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Good point, Lucky.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Wed, Jun 04, 1997 at 03:47:02PM -0700, Lucky Green wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:
> > Do these children
> > who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> > scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> > radius or
> > shooting range of :
> 
> [list of public places elided]
> 
> Perhaps taking your kids to day care in a downtown area is not a very good 
> idea in the first place. But putting them into daycare inside a federal 
> building is criminally stupid.
> 
> Some on this list will even 
> say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.

Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
revolution.

And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
"criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Is that you, Elsworth Toohey? After all these years...?

> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
> revolution.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

At 9:14 PM -0700 6/4/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never
>sent to
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and
>co-workers.
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen
>to be
>a neo-victorian myself.
>
>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted
>morals,
>and a feverish imagination."

Like I said, Duncan, Kent Crispin is in that terminal phase of simply
insulting the list in any way he can...which is apparently pretty feebly.
Perhaps he can contract with Vulis to use the 'bot Vulis uses to post his
daily ASCII art insults.

Imagine it: Everyday we could see a Crispingram: "Timmy Peter Pan May is
just another strange little boy swaggering around in never-never land."

By the way, this is why I urge some caution in criticizing Phill
Hallam-Baker. Phill is a liberal and anti-gun person, and perhaps even a
Clinton supporter. (Gasp.) But he, while as abrasive on his issues as we
are on ours, seldom resorts to the kind of puerile criticism Crispin uses.

Hell, some of my best conversational friends are commies! (Dave Mandl, for
example)

(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways than
one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues like gun
control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that reducing
power of central governments remains a good thing.)


--Tim

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03102807afbbf55a7e2d@[207.167.93.63]>, on 06/04/97 
   at 10:02 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>(Those who have a deeper understanding of anarchy, whether
>anarcho-capitalism or more leftist variants, tend to understand that the
>underlying similarities are greater than the differences. Though I favor
>unrestricted free markets, I understand that corporate agents, like
>Microsoft, PGP, and RSA, will seek advantage anyway they can, and are a
>threat in any statist system. Anarchy lessens their power in more ways
>than one. I will continue to fight my left-anarchist friends on issues
>like gun control and freedom of association, but we seem to agree that
>reducing power of central governments remains a good thing.)

There is an old Middle East saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

While such a philosphy can be quite effective taticly it can pose risks
strategicly.

A good example of this was our support of Iraq durring the Iraq-Iran war
even though Iraq had traditionally been a soviet allie. This came back to
haut us durring the gulf War as our previous "friend" became a new enemy
when truly they were always an enemy and the freindship was temporarily
created through a common "enemy". Many other examples of this can be seen
in US foreign relations.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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> > Some on this list will even 
> > say that the kids' deaths fortunately 
> > reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool.
> 
> Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
> land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
> feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
> over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
> revolution.

Very poetic, forgive me if I fail to see the point.

> And thank you, Lucky, for enlightening me -- it isn't the OKC bomber
> who is the criminal, it's the people who put their children in the
> daycare center!  There's only one punishment suitable for such 
> "criminally stupid" behavior!  Lock and Load!

Now this to me is an ideal example of the sort of twisting of other 
peoples points that is typical of Kents dialogue.

Lucky actually said that the parents were stupid putting their children 
in that daycare centre. They were, the parents have no-one to blame but 
themselves for the fact that their children were unnecessarily placed at 
risk. however, this neither makes the parents guilty of any crime nor 
does it absolve McVeigh, or whoever did it, from blame.

Lucky was right, the removal of those children from the gene pool was 
probably advantageous, that does not make it right, simply a judgement 
after the fact.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.

A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
it after all."

Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."

There is a difference.

-Declan



On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote:

> <rant>
> 
> Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh 
> Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the 
> string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found 
> guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty,  Guilty,  Guilty. Jury of 
> his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how 
> our system works.
> 
> Yes there are flaws in the system.
> 
> Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future.
> 
> Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier 
> ass. Or not.
> 
> So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what 
> _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this 
> case Duncan Frissell frissell@panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) 
> can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say :
> 
> <>
> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over 
> to
> government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those
> children.
> <>
> 
> Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you 
> really
> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 
>  is
> on the same plane.
> 
> To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point 
> across....
> 
> Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does 
> the
> PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh 
> did it.
> But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. 
> Do you
> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.
> Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you 
> were on acid
> when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do 
> you have
> children? Any  cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these 
> children
> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 
> 
> If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that 
> safe place.
> 
> You get the point, I could go on....but I won't.  Perhaps you should think 
> and read
> over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean 
> ONLY) to
> come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is
> that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some 
> reason,
> had a prefrontal.
> 
> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it
> is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.
> 
> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
> 
> 	Chris DiBona
> 
> </rant>
> 
>

Declan McCullagh <declan@pathfinder.com> writes:

> I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative
> counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down.
>
> A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did
> it after all."
>
> Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime."
>
> There is a difference.

Not to a journalist whore. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>revolution.

I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
 I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
a neo-victorian myself.

Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
and a feverish imagination."

How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?  Why 
don't you bleed for *their* victims.  Remember, government's crimes are worse 
than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be, a force-
based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
sustained anymore.  Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery.  It 
would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
allow self-government to replace others-government.  It will happen anyway.

DCF


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> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children 
> over to government employees or contractors do not place too high a 
> value on those children.

I certainly don`t agree that a high value was not placed on the lives of 
the children by their parents, but the parents were guilty of naivety, 
stupidity and placing the children at risk.

> think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who
> should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" 

I certainly feel the parents, though guilty of no crime, have only 
themselves to blame for the needless deaths of their children.

> understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any 
> reason.

Of course, but the children shouldn`t have been there in the first place. 
McVeigh, if he did it, is guilty of murder, on those children alone. He 
commited an initiation of violence against innocent and defenceless human 
beings, this is why I believe the bomber, whoever he/she is, should die 
for their crimes, BUT, the childrens lives were placed at risk by their 
parents because they believed they would be safe in a federal government 
building, very bad move. I`m not absolving McVeigh from guilt, just 
pointing out basic facts.

> who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to
> scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast 
> radius or
> shooting range of :
> 
> A government office.
> A large corporations headquarters.
> A law firm.
> A post office.
> A town square.
> A restaurant.
> A bank.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy.
> Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. 

The bottom 3 suggestions are clearly an excessive over-generalisation of 
the point, the parents could not really be reasonably expected to believe 
their children would be harmed by a crazed gunman. As for the drunk 
driver, do you let your kids run unattended on busy roads?

Placing them in a federal building was a stupid act, not criminal, but 
most definitely not the act of a sensible person.

> To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also 
> mention it is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults.

Depends who those adults are, as I said in a post yesterday, I do not 
subscribe to the "save the children!" mentality, and killing an innocent 
adult is as criminal as killing an innocent child, but those children 
could not possibly have initiated agression against McVeigh, because they 
were under the age of criminal responsibility (which is a hazy area, but 
I think this case is pretty clear cut). Blowing up guilty, evil, and 
government affiliated adults is to be highly commended.

> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
> 
> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.

True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities, 
but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical 
government that rules us.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

On Thu, Jun 05, 1997 at 12:14:20AM -0400, frissell@panix.com wrote:
>>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never 
>>land.  Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and 
>>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority
>>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming 
>>revolution.
>
>I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me.  Lucky has a 
>successful career in a computer-related field.  Tim was exceedingly well-
>integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and 
>lucrative work for them.  I am married with four children (who I never sent to 
>a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. 
> I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker.  I happen to be 
>a neo-victorian myself.

Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done 
a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man 
who also gets along well with a host of people.

I was characterizing the people Lucky described:  

  Some on this list will even say that the kids' deaths fortunately
  reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool. 

If you, Lucky, or Tim hold such sentiments in your heart, then I am
referring to you.  Lucky's statement that people putting their 
children in daycare in a federal building are "criminally stupid" is 
simply contemptible.

>Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views 
>as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one 
>ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in 
>never-never land.  A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, 
>and a feverish imagination."

Of course, Gore has been called far worse things, many times over. 
Probably on this very list.  You know that, I know that.

>
>How do you know our hearts are shriveled?  Can it be because we can do the 
>math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh?

No Duncan.  It's because your first thought is to do that math.  It is
one thing to be aware of the many, many failings of human beings and
their governments.  It is another thing to savor rightous anger,
keeping score, and thinking of suitable revenge.  Besides, who the
heck are "the Feds"? What set of human beings are you thinking about?

>Why 
>don't you bleed for *their* victims.

I do.  Though I wouldn't use that metaphor.

>Remember, government's crimes are worse 
>than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious 
>breach of duty and trust is involved. 

Keeping score again, eh?  Government -5 billion, Duncan 10.

>Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and 
>wrong.  But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be,
>a force-
>based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be 
>sustained anymore.

Why on earth would you think that?

>Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery. 

"My" side? You probably mean the "government".  If so, you are
deluded.  If not, you are right -- I personally have only a small
armory -- a few automatic weapons, two tactical nukes, some
conventional explosives, and a big pocket knife -- just your average
homeowner arsenal. 

>It 
>would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and 
>allow self-government to replace others-government.

I'm not standing in anyone's way, and it wouldn't make any difference
at all if I did, because I am an insignificant zero who comforts
himself with the thought that being a clown is an honorable
profession.  That's reality.  You should take a hit, sometime -- it's
heavy stuff.  But you know who really needs a heavy dose -- it's that 
Bob Hettinga fellow -- his head is shaped strangely like a big brick, 
and he gets it wedged in the strangest places.

> It will happen anyway.

Yep.  And the second coming is just around the corner,  now that 
the comet has arrived with the mother ship.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
...
> Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> who also gets along well with a host of people.
...
LOL.  Almost ROTFL.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> ...
> > Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done
> > a great deal for Intel, in that role.  And he is a great family man
> > who also gets along well with a host of people.
Family Man?  Yeah, wife, kid, and several sluts he had affairs with. 
He's a great family man, alright.

At 3:50 PM -0700 6/4/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
>> Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said :
>>
>> For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs.
>
>True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities,
>but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical
>government that rules us.

It is my contention that, in the present circumstances, bombs are not
effective devices for ending the corrupt tyrannical government which rules
us.  They are much more likely to make enemies for "our cause" than they
are to physically stop the government.  Does the phrase, "Bomb throwing
anarchist" give you the feeling of hero, or of villain?  Most people will
answer villain, and killing people is not likely to change their minds.


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