Re: We need more surveillance--a morality play about terrorism

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Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> I've been watching an HBO movie, "Path to Paradise," about the
> bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993. It's quite
> well-done, as most HBO movies of this sort are.

Maybe I'll get a TV one of these days. Nah.

> * "You mean Islamic radicals are free to preach their message of
> hate and violence? Unbelievable!" (This is a paraphrase...there
> were several such opinions expressed, where FBI managers express
> outrage that such things are permitted in the U.S.)

I can't even imagine anyone in the FBI saying anything like that. In
the National Security (tm) establishment and local police forces,
yes, but the FBI is pretty professional, and has heard of the First
Amendment. In this case, though, there was the additional issue of
Rachman being an illegal alien. (I'm not a big fan of border controls
of any kind, but I do consider political hostility to the US to be a
legitimate reason for a state to bar someone from entry and residence.
Bleeding hearts aside, poverty and lack of language and job skills
are also legitimate reasons to bar people at the golden door.)

It's fashionable to romanticize the enemy as big national or
supranational thugs, but in reality the corrupt local cop is the
bigger civil liberties threat to most normal people.

On the "other side":

Look, more people died from car accidents in the last 12 days than
died in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building, and far fewer
still (or was it nobody?) died in the World Trade Center. By the
numbers, terrorism just doesn't deserve the press coverage it gets.
McVeigh would have done better if he'd started an automobile factory.
It worked for Henry Ford; how many copies of The International Jew
and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion did he print with the money
he made, and how long did respectable antisemitism delay the US entry
into WWII? Food for thought. If you really want to influence people
over the long term, make money, not bombs. William Pierce is on the
wrong track.

> * The niceties of getting wiretap orders were treated as ways to
> coddle criminals.

This does happen, and bugs me (so to speak).

> --Tim May, who's sorry he missed the display of firepower at the
> physical meeting today

One of these days I'll make it to the firing range.

You also missed a revealing story over dinner, which probably meant
something different to me than the storyteller intended, but there
it is.

A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.

Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?

Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
"Saturday Night Special." But still, I don't see the totalitarianism.

While it wasn't covered in human rights school, I don't think the
FBI should sit idly by and let terrorists sponsored by the government
of Iran blow people up, either. And so they didn't sit idly by. They
waited for probable cause. And lost one. Oops. A few random bombings
seems a reasonable price to pay for all our freedoms, though,
especially since it probably couldn't have been prevented in the
first place.

But by all means, keep the paranoia coming. That's what keeps this
country more or less free. Far better to have frogs hopping wild and
free (as God designed them) than sitting in the pot talking about
how nice and warm the water is. Just don't lose it so badly that you
start endorsing the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Murrah
Federal Building, please.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:

>A guy on the way to the shooting range is pulled over for speeding.
>The cop notices the guns, orders him out of the car, and asks where
>he's going. He answers, "Let me explain the way I think this country
>works. I am going wherever I damn well please." So the cop gives him
>a speeding ticket, and he continues on his way.
>
>Now tell me, is this evidence that we're living in a police state?
>
>Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>"Saturday Night Special." 

The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
gun owners.

It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

  Put a stake through the heart of DES! Join the quest at
  http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
[...]
> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
> >"Saturday Night Special." 
> 
> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
> gun owners.
> 
> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
come out. 

Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not (just) 
the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos at the
supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites" having
guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it. Technical
capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

-rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/16/97 
   at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

>> At 05:02 PM 6/15/97 -0700, Rich Graves wrote:
>[...]
>> >Of course it probably helped that the guy was white, and probably
>> >driving a "decent" car, and carrying "decent" guns and not some
>> >"Saturday Night Special." 
>> 
>> The guy being white and educated may well have convinced the cop to not
>> make a fuzz. My local newspaper recently ran an article about a few
>> Hispanic looking folks who had some photographs of themselves holding guns
>> in their hands developed at the supermarket. Before they even picked up the
>> prints, the clerk had called the cops which in turn raided the unfortunate
>> gun owners.
>> 
>> It turned out that the Hispanics owned the firearms legally.

>I always knew you had a bleeding-heard liberal inside, just struggling to
>come out. 

>Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.

If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.

If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
raiding the Hispanic gun owners.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
> 
> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
> 
> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
> 
> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had local
police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the antebellum
South, too. How else you expect people to protect their property? A man
can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or if he does, he's
liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition. Gun control means
being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970617002359.19769C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
06/17/97 
   at 12:39 AM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> In <Pine.GUL.3.95.970616215033.19356A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, on
>> 06/16/97 at 10:04 PM, Rich Graves <rcgraves@disposable.com> said:
>> 
>> >Yes, for some people, this is a police state. But the threat is not
>> >(just)  the FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA; it's us. It's the people developing photos
>> >at the supermarket who aren't comfortable with Hispanics and "ebonites"
>> >having guns, and believe the police or TLAs should put a stop to it.
>> >Technical capabilities don't oppress people; people do.
>> 
>> If it wasn't for the fact that we *are* living in a police state the
>> opions of a supermarket clerk would not be relevant.
>> 
>> If we were living in a Constutional democracy where the TLAs had to abide
>> by the laws of the land then the gestapo would have never even though of
>> raiding the Hispanic gun owners.

>What Gestapo? Lucky Green didn't tell the whole story, but it was my
>impression he was talking about the local police or sheriff. They had
>local police and sheriffs lo those glorious days of freedom of the
>antebellum South, too. How else you expect people to protect their
>property? A man can't stay awake watching for looters 24 hours a day, or
>if he does, he's liable to start hallucinating and wasting ammunition.
>Gun control means being able to keep your eyes open and shoot straight.

Does it really matter if they are local thugs or federal??

Are they exempt from the Constitution because the county signs their
paycheck rather than an agency in DC??

I highly doubt that the Hispanics envolved really cared which government
the brown shirts were working for when their doors were kicked in.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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