Re: McVeigh

Geiger writes:

>That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have
>been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone
>too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his
>buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never
>lie.

Well I supose there is the possibility your lot might see sense and 
ask to be readmitted to the British Empire but its by no means clear
you would be re-admitted. And there would have to be reparitions for
all that confiscated British property being used without compensation...

>I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have
>thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government
>said it was.

McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
are willing to do so.

>That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just
>maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a
>Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing
>to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us
>all.

But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda. The militias
have not rejected the concept of a state, far from it they claim ownership
of it, they claim that they have the right to dispense law, they claim
the right to murder those who disagree with them. Their ideology is 
at root that of Musollini's fascists.

It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.


	Phill

Mike Duvos wrote:

> No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
> citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
> ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
> she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
> just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist.

Crap.

The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

If you are going to mouth off conspiracy theories at least make
them credible.

If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. There
was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

The FBI bungled the seige baddly but thats why Freeh is currently
in charge of the FBI.


	Phill

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>The kids were murdered by Koresh who had the compound set alight.
>I've gone over the videos we made live off CNN. There is absolutely 
>no doubt that the fire started in multiple places.

Spoken like a man who *hasn't* seen the FLIRT (Forward Looking InfraRed 
Television) tapes that show the characteristic signatures of ingoing
automatic 
weapons fire.  Even the Washington Post was "troubled."

Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
gas 
(admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
armed assault on a private dwelling.

I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
saying 
that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
then 
knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
nothing that happened there was my fault.

Gee!  Too bad about those Jews.  They accidently wandered out into the middle 
of Poland and committed suicide all 6 million of them.  Religious fanaticism 
can be dangerous. 

>If a group of people shoot anyone approaching them for any reason
>whatsoever the police have an absolute need to investigate. 

So who did they shoot in advance of the BATF attack?

>There
>was nothing else the authorities could have done except prevent
>Koresh from accumulating the arms in the first place.

There are currently hundreds of "compounds" (probably thousands) in America 
that have more firearms and people than existed at Mt. Carmel (80 people.
One 
gun per person).  There are millions of households in America (some on this 
list) that have *many* more guns per person (20x) than the residents of 
Koresh's religious community had.

The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

We pay them to be PEACE officers not WAR officers.  WAR officers we reserve 
for foreigners (and Hispanic teenagers herding their goats on their own land 
and plinking with DANGEROUS .22 assault rifles too near the Mexican border).

DCF
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At 05:13 PM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
>them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Phill, I'm really appalled at this posting of yours.
When a bunch of armed marked people storm your house with assault rifles
and grenades, without warning you to come out first,
and you shoot back at them, that's not murder.  That's self-defense.
It may be stupid - there's a lot to be said for lying on the floor
with your hands over your head, which will make the armed assault force
feel slightly guilty if they shoot you in the back - but it's
not murder, and it's not anything resembling murder.
If the BATF killed any of the Davidians in the incident, _that_ would 
have been murder.  
	[If, as some people contend, some of the four dead assailants were 
	actually killed by friendly fire, that wouldn't have been murder
	either, that would have been an accident.  And since the leader
	of the attack force knew he'd probably lost the element of surprise,
	he was clearly negligent in protecting his men.]

Even if the Davidians knew, and they apparently did,
that an armed gang was about to storm their house without warning,
that's still self-defense, not murder.  Waving a white flag out the window
before the attackers have a chance to sneak up and storm you
would probably embarass or confuse them, but the Davidians had no
reason to trust that the assault force would respect it
and not just shoot them anyway -- and besides, while the Davidians
had fewer guns per person than the average Texan, they were
paranoid wackos, and surrendering before being attacked isn't the
kind of thing you expect paranoid wackos to think of at dawn
after being warned by a phone call.
	
>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
>the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

I didn't say the people who disagreed with you on this list
weren't engaging in macho flash rhetoric here :-)

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.

Not just the SAS - even the FBI said after the first wave of attacks that,
unlike the BATF, they really try not to lead armed assaults
when there are women and children in the way.  By a couple of months
later, the political pressure had become strong enough that they
decided to do it anyway, but at least at first they were embarassed
about the situation their colleagues had gotten them into.
The US military has better-trained people also, but there's a very strong
tradition against using the US military for domestic incidents -
our so-called Civil War has really soured us on that.

But whether you're looking at the SAS, Marines, BATF, Delta Force,
or FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the mission wasn't something a 
military assault force is right for - that sort of thing is fine for 
rescuing hostages from terrorists, or killing terrorists before
they set off bombs or shoot the neighbors.  But the legal objective
of the police should have been to inform the Davidians that the
police want to search their house, or that they were wanted in court, 
or maybe even to arrest them if there was enough evidence to convince a 
judge to sign an arrest warrant.  What can a military do?  
Shoot the adults for refusing to surrender, while trying not to shoot the 
kids too?  Militias can do things like keep the Davidians from running 
away when the police knock on their door, but there probably wasn't enough 
evidence of a crime to justify an arrest, certainly not of anyone but
Koresh, and if everybody _did_ run away, that would make searching their
house to get evidence of contraband possession easier.

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since 
>> (Koresh wasn't the  only one who got burned there) and 
>> LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
>lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Again, the Davidian's response was stupid, but this wasn't a 
"visit from the police", this was an assault force that shot first
while they were storming the house at dawn.

The local sheriff had visited the house the previous year
to respond to allegations of potential child abuse.
Came up, knocked on the door, they let him in, everybody talked,
he decided there was no evidence of criminal child abuse,
just weird religious and personality-cult.  No problem.
If he'd wanted to do the same again, he could have,
and he could have done something similar for the weapons charge.
If they _had_ checked, they'd have found that one of the
residents was a licensed firearm dealer, and could have checked 
his records, which he's legally required to keep and present.
No need to storm somebody's house just because you're worried that
they might flush a couple of pieces of metal down the toilet
when they see you coming - it's not like it's DOPE or something.

Also, if he'd wanted to arrest Koresh, he could have done it in town,
or when the guy was out jogging, which was daily.

>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
>the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

The militias??  Phill, the only militia that McVeigh was part of was
the US Army.  Sure, they're one of the world's leading terrorist 
organizations, and they probably should have noticed that he was a wacko 
and kicked him out, like the Michigan Militia had the sense to do, 
rather than training him to be a gung-ho killer, but sometimes you
don't realize what somebody's like or what Army training will do to them.
And besides, I've had friends who were Army recruiters, and when you've
got a quota to make, you'll take anybody who can write "X" and
knows how to make a fist.

As far as blame for Waco goes, Janet Reno has said it's all hers.
[NOW FOR A FLAME] 
Janet Reno, who started the wave of minority church burnings in the South,
just had the GALL to make a speech talking about all the good things 
she's been doing to stop that sort of thing.  Not about how she's
personally responsible and has been trying to rehabilitate herself,
but about how other people are evil and need to be stopped.
<expletive deleted>!  Hypocrite.  I don't know if 1-888-ATF-FIRE
is still running, but y'all are free to call up and rat on her.




#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
> gas 
> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
> armed assault on a private dwelling.

Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
> saying 
> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
> then 
> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
> nothing that happened there was my fault.

If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
surrender, sure go for it.

Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
ownership of firearms and child abuse?


And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

	Phill

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In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:


>> Spoken like a man who thinks that if some Federal Government somewhere tries 
>> to knock buildings down with tanks and releases massive quantities of tear
>> gas 
>> (admitted by the Federales), it has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever 
>> for whatever follows.  It was just an innocent bystander.  All this after an 
>> armed assault on a private dwelling.

>Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
>agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow them
>to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

>Since you clearly intend from your earlier posts for "whatever follows"
>to mean McVeighs murder of 167 people in Oaklahoma clearly it does not.

>The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse the
>Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
>McVeigh and those who encouraged him.


>> I'll have to try that some time with the Jacob K. Javits Federal Office 
>> building in lower Manhatten.  I know I can count on you to defend me by
>> saying 
>> that even though I hit the place with 20 or 30 heavily-armed troopies and
>> then 
>> knocked a few walls down with tanks and filled the building with tear gas, 
>> nothing that happened there was my fault.

>If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
>shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
>surrender, sure go for it.

>Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.


>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?


>And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and the
>militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

>	Phill


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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In <199706042113.RAA15819@muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 
   at 05:13 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> said:

>> The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
>> only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.

>yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to lie
>in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

First off they did not lie in wait for anyone. They were in their home not
bothering anyone. You make it seem like they were in the bushes on the
side of the road and ambushed a peasefull group of BATF agents on their
way to a sunday picnic. The local police had been out to the Waco compound
several times without incedent. There was no reason to suspect that
another vist would have gone any different. Instead the BATF went in there
like an invading army with guns blazing and rightfully got their asses
handed to them.


>So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
>ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Last time I looked (horror of horrors) guns are still *LEGAL* in this
country. As far as child abuse there was no evidence of this other than
the word of 1 disgruntaled former member of their group. Even if the
*local* police felt that this complaint warented investigation all that
was called for was a vist by a Human Services Case Worker not a military
invasion.

All this aside I guess you feel that the Feds should be able to wage
military campains against its citizens just on unsbstantiated rummors. Gee
where did I put that quarter? Perhaps I should call the BATF and give them
YOUR address. It would be intresting to see how much you love their
gestopo tatics when it's your house being riddled with bullets.



- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

Surrender to whom? To those that had fired upon their church when first 
approaching? Remember, the ATF fired *first*. [The ATF claimed they 
opened fire when they were shot at through the wooden front door from inside 
the church. The front door was made of solid steel. After burning all the 
worshippers inside, the ATF removed the front door and stored it in an 
evidence room. The door is listed on the evidence log. That's the last 
time anyone other than the feds has seen the door. When the survivers 
wanted to present the door in court to prove that the only bullet holes 
were from shots fired from the outside (the ATF), the door had vanished 
into thin air. To this day, the steel door can not be found.]

Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating
arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing
the thread.

There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's
murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel, 
Gieger and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact.

Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI
agents attempting to entrap the unwary...


	Phill

PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in
evidence in connection with the Bell case?

Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:
> Only I think that the SAS is probably better experienced.
> 
> 
> > The Feds could have done in 1993 what they've done since (Koresh wasn't the 
> > only one who got burned there) and LEAVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ALONE.
> 
> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.
>
> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Tens of highly armed ninjas running at ones property does not
constitute a "visit." More like an "attack." If the ATF agents had
been neighbors of the Davidains, then the Davidians would have been
well within thier rights to shoot them down.

The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
officials before the raid.

HTH,
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

(I didn't start this Koresh/Waco thread...I'm just renaming it from
"McVeigh" to something more germane to the points.)

At 6:39 PM -0700 6/4/97, Jeremiah A Blatz wrote:

>The proper thing to do would be to walk up and knock on the door. The
>local sherrif suggested that percise action. However, the unassailable
>feds in their ivory towers couldn't be bothered to ask any local
>officials before the raid.

As is well known, the Sheriff also said that Koresh had been pleasant to
him on a couple of other visits (of the knock on the door type, not the
Nomex-clad ninjas sneaking up on all sides with asault rifles at the
ready). The Sheriff also said Koresh could have been picked up on any of
his trips into Waco, or on any of his morning jogs around the property and
nearby roads.

For this honesty, the Sheriff elected to resign.

Oh, and the reason the Davidians knew about the raiders planning an assault
was because some local reporters were talking about it, and someone who
overheard them called Koresh to warn him that something big was about to
happen.

You see, the media and their cameras had been called in to film this
propaganda event, this public relations shot in the arm for the beleagured
BATF.

Shot in the arm indeed. And in the head, And in the kidney. And shot by
their own side, from all indications once the "commence fire" command was
given.

I don't know whether Koresh started the fire, or the tanks started the
fire, or the tear gas grenades started the fire, or the automatic weapons
fire started the fire. What I know is that a paramilitary assault, complete
with tanks and Blackhawk choppers was launched against a private residence
for the alleged crimes of having too many weapons (in Texas? gimme a break)
and of an allegation of child abuse.

That Koresh was not picked up under the circumstances described above, and
that the media was invited in to help film the recruting film, tells us
that the affair was not about what the BATF and FBI claim it was about.

Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties be
meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very liberal
with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about having a trial and
giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF leaders?

I imagine that some of those brought to trial might receive lesser
sentences, maybe even no punishment at all if they could convince their
jury they were "just following orders."

I can also imagine some might receive fairly light prison terms, of a few
years or less. (Of course, some of them might then face another fate in
prison.) But the level of criminality and malfeasance show suggest to me
that at least 4 of the Waco raiders and their bosses, maybe 5, would get
the death penalty. Sounds fair to me.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May wrote:
> 
> Why is it so radical to ask that a criminal trial be held for those
> responsible, and all participants, and that the appropriate penalties
> be meted out if any of those charged are found guilty? Texas is very
> liberal with the lethal injections, so what's the big deal about
> having a trial and giving the needle to a dozen or so of the BATF
> leaders?

You're forgetting that guilt is decided by the DA when he brings the
case, not by the jury.  After all, if the accused wasn't guilty, he
wouldn't have been charged, right?

-- 
What is appropriate for the master is not appropriate| Tom Weinstein
for the novice.  You must understand Tao before      | tomw@netscape.com
transcending structure.  -- The Tao of Programming   |

> Give it a rest. The people inside had already murdered several BATF
> agents. They had every opportunity to release the children and allow
> them to get to safety. They had every opportunity to surrender.

The acts were not of murder, the compound inhabitants were simply acting 
in response to the BATF agents actions of trespass, of course they had 
opportunity to surrender, so did the jews in nazi Germany.

> The US police may be incompetent and corrupt but that does not excuse
> the Oaklahoma bombing nor does it in any way lessen the responsibility of
> McVeigh and those who encouraged him.

For once I agree, but on a trivial and unimportant point.

Further those who encouraged him may be responsible, but are not guilty 
of any crime.

> If you have a duly authorised warrant from a court, the inhabitants have
> shot at people from inside the building and you give them two months to
> surrender, sure go for it.

If the people they shot at were trespassing on their land they have done 
nothing wrong. If I come to your front door and give you 2 months to 
surrender your house to me, I think I can predict your reaction.

> yeah peacefull types whose response to a visit from the police was to
> lie in ambush and shoot at them with automatic weapons.

Quite so, the police are agressors by trespassing on their land they 
commited an initiation of agression. Don`t give me this "reasonable 
force" bullshit either.

> So are you suggesting that the police ignore the complaints of illegal
> ownership of firearms and child abuse?

Yes, illegal ownership of firearms is an oxymoron, no weapons should be 
illegal. As for the child abuse, that is a thornier subject, but the 
police had no right to be there.

> And in any case the point is that Waco does not absolve McVeigh and
> the militias for the blame for Oaklahoma.

No, but it doesn`t change the fact that no-one is supporting McVeighs 
agressive act against the children in that building. There are many sides 
to this case, it is not just a black and white case, there are a lot of 
angles one can analyse and judge it from.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Phil,

Look, I know you're somewhat anti-private guns and somewhat anti-Right Wing 
Nuts.  I can understand all that.  I'm somewhat anti-government guns and 
somewhat anti-Left Wing Nuts myself. 

So don't take the word of right wing nuts on WACO.  Pay attention to former 
Attorney General Ramsey Clark as he sues the Feds on behalf of the survivors.

Or read the review of the new documentary WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT which 
premiered at Sundance.  

http://www.waco93.com/

http://www.waco93.com/sfbgreview.htm

San Francisco Bay Guardian March 12, 1997  (SF's Alternative Weekly)

Rewinding Waco

New doc Waco turns heads, hearts. By Susan Gerhard

"I've always voted Democrat," William Gazecki, director of crowd-displeaser 
Waco: The Rules of Engagement, told me over the phone last week. "But at this 
point, all the lines are crossing in my mind."

Ours, too. One of the most achingly sad documentaries I can remember, 
Gazecki's film sounds, on paper, more like a morning with Rush Limbaugh than 
like an evening screening at the Roxie (where it got its first theatrical run, 
last week). In Waco's world the gun "nuts" are sane, the conservatives are 
honest, the liberals are pigs, the children are in danger. The doc left even 
slackers in Roxie's rep house stunned, their ideologies scrambled and their 
consciences scarred by a slow-motion,two-hour-plus replay of the slaughter of 
a peaceful sect.

How can a jury look at the Rodney King videotape and not see a police beating? 
The same way the American people can look at the Waco inferno and see a mass 
suicide.

A radical reframing suited up in pin-striped documentary garb, The Rules of 
Engagement mixes footage that's already been heavily digested by interested 
parties: Waco in flames, forward- looking infrared (FLIR) imagery seen by 
Congress, CSPAN's coverage of the Waco hearings, David Koresh's pleas, Janet 
Reno's testimony. But this film adds to that tabloid mix some desperate 911 
calls by Branch Davidians, sections of the negotiation tapes that offer a 
dismal perspective on FBI attempts to come to a truce, the Davidians' footage 
and that of the FBI agents (a SWAT teamster jokes about being "honed to kill," 
while Davidians inside calmly express fear for their lives). Most crucially, 
the soundtrack lays new emotional cues over old footage (a Third Reichian 
drumbeat as federal agents approach, heavy-metal guitar tangle as tanks crash 
into the building). And in case anyone's sympathy for the Davidians was 
lagging, the film also has witnesses noting that armed federal agents killed 
their Alaskan malamute.


**********

Showing at

THE COOLIDGE CORNER
    Brookline, MA

    Showing daily 
    June 27 - July 4


DCF
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Phill writes:

> McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this
> case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in
> condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you
> are willing to do so.

No government can afford to behave in a way that outrages large numbers of
citizen-units, and provokes action on the part of the less mentally stable
ones.  Janet Reno sealed the fate of the federal building on the day that
she took action which resulted in numerous children being incinerated,
just so she could win a dicksizing contest with a religious extremist. 

> But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like
> McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda.

I worry a lot more about the behavior of the United States, the nation
that never apologizes, the arms merchant to the world, five percent of the
population of the world that thinks it has the Manifest Destiny to dictate
to the other ninety five percent, than I worry about whether such behavior
inspired little Timmy McVeigh and others of his ilk to set off a truck
bomb. 

I think the odds are about 50/50 between McVeigh being the bomber, and
McVeigh being the first anti-government extremist sap the Feds tripped
over after their precious building blew up.  It's not as if we have the
ability to make that distinction given coerced testimony from friends,
planned leaks, and invented testimony from the FBI crime lab, all of which
could have been easily manufactured for an arbitrary suspect. 

Maybe McVeigh blew up the building, and maybe he didn't.  Like the Kennedy
assassination, the official version of the facts is now all that exists. 

> It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
> for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
> grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
> many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Along with many Vietnamese children, Granadian children, Panamanian
children, and Quadaffi's baby.  At least in Oklahoma city, we didn't have
marines bulldozing the bodies of dead civilians into trenches to make
everything neat and tidy before the press arrived. 

Yes, Oklahoma city was unfortunate.  It was not remarkable or unexpected. 

If the government deliberately kills Tim Mcveigh, it will not bring back a
single dead person.  It will just demonstrate that we have a government
that deliberately kills people.  But then, we knew that already, didn't
we? 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $

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At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:
>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.
>

Give us a break.  Governments murdered 170megs of people this century.  Tim 
was a piker.  The Federales murdered over 300 at Wounded Knee alone.  Sure Tim 
was not too bright and had some unfortunate ideas but he didn't do anything 
that the U.S. government didn't do all the time.

DCF
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At 05:56 PM 6/3/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote:

>It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist
>for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to
>grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers,
>many will not grow up at all because he murdered them.

Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the 
Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other 
students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show 
these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to 
boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the 
Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

McGovern, George -- Bomber pilot in WWII, "peace" candidate for President of 
the United States in 1972.  

Lots of baby killers out there in the strangest places.

As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over to 
government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those 
children.

DCF
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frissell@panix.com writes:
> Circa 1974, I was sitting in my law school lounge watching "The Charge of the
> Light Brigade" starring Errol Flynn on TV.  There was a group of other
> students there.  Then came the line from the film: "Men, we're going to show
> these Turks that you can't murder innocent women and children and live to
> boast about it (a British garrison had been attacked, which led to the
> Charge).  I immediately piped up, "That's funny, George McGovern did!"

I haven't seen the movie, but my recollection is that in real life the
British were attacking the Russians.  See, the Turks were killing
Xians in the Balkans, and the Russians foolishly tried to protect them,
and the British stepped in to protect the Turks.  Maybe they changed it
all in the movie version (can't expect U.S. moviegoers to follow 19th
century politics).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps