Re: McVeigh

Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> it much of the right wing fringe.

  Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
  Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
on the internet.
  I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
There are merely those who act or who don't act.

  <The rest of Phill's post is just his usual knee-jerk, elitist
slander of those he politically opposes, and not worth commenting
on.>

TruthMonger

Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:

> I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
when people post things they don't like.

This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
through murder while fulminating at censorship by
governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
exclude death threats.

It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
claim to defend.


	Phill

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Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns are
more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with weeping
mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would probably
say anything to avoid execution.

None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
impartial body.

In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.


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Robert A. Hayden              hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu   __
         -=-=-=-=-=-                              -=-=-=-=-=-   \/_
         http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html    \/

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In <Pine.ULT.3.95.970604154333.14912A-100000@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>, on
06/04/97 
   at 03:50 PM, "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu> said:

>Maybe it is just me, but I think the whole McVeigh trial issues aren't
>about whether he did or didn't do it.  it's important, but my concerns
>are more about the process the government used to prove it's case.

>It's built this huge circumstantial case, sprinkled liberally with
>weeping mothers and children, added with a couple of witnesses who would
>probably say anything to avoid execution.

>None of it actually proved he DID it, just that it was possible. 

>When a person can be convicted by sympathy, twisted circumstantial
>evidence, and testimony given under threat of execution, you have to
>wonder about the _process_ in this country, and th idea of trial by an
>impartial body.

>In my gut, I think he probably did do it, but I cannot see how the
>prosecutors proved it beyond a "reasonable doubt".

>Considering the testimony that is going to be allowed for the penalty
>phase, I cannot forsee any verdict other than death.

Well you would think that with all the Talk by the Feds of how
overwhelming the evedence was against him that they might actually give
him a fair trial. I think that there is sothing about that in the
Constitution. Oh silly me I forgot they have never read it as the last
copy was used by Hoover for toilet paper 30yrs ago.



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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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> > > Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have
> > been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the
> > second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......
> 
> I find it very hard to credit people as being opposed to
> censorship when they make thinly veiled threats of murder
> when people post things they don't like.

What? - I don`t seem to recall making any threat, if you are referring to 
the AP quote above, see the post it was in reply to which mention 2 AP 
bots, I asked where the second was, this was not even intended as a 
humorous mock-threat, I did not even notice it looked threatening in 
context. 

If you are referring to the "soft target" quote, that came from a post I 
replied to and was not mine. Look elsewhere.

Also, you are clearly under some misconception if you feel censored or 
threatened by my speech, as anyone who reads my posts often will know, I 
would take no initial agressive act against anyone.

> This is the type of censorship that the IRA uses in NI,
> Catholics who join organisations opposed to the IRA get
> death threats and threats of punishment beatings. When 
> the parents of the five year old murdered by an IRA bomb
> placed in a rubish bin outside a McDonalds announced
> a US speaking tour the IRA threatened to murder them.

The IRA are a bunch of thugs, who happen to serve a useful purpose, 
personally however, I would say than on balance their attacks on 
civilians and private property harm the cause of freedom by showing 
that some of the "terrorists" around really are nasty scary control-freaks.

> Murdering your opponents for what they say is censorship. 

Quite so, you seem to be answering a point I never made, please elaborate 
on this deep issue you appear to have just discovered.

> Bell's Murder Politics scheme was a censorship scheme.

Wrong, Bells AP was intended by Bell as a defensive system to be used 
against agressors, saying AP is a censorship scheme is like saying a gun 
is a tool of censorship because you can kill someone with it. So is a 
knife, so is a big stick.

> The fact that Miltia sympathisers condone censorship 
> through murder while fulminating at censorship by
> governement does not surprise me in the least. i can
> guess that someone will try to redefine censorship to
> exclude death threats.

All speech is non-criminal and non agressive, I could make a direct death 
threat with specific details and would not consider my actions criminal, 
I am no militia sympathiser, if McVeigh did kill those children he should 
die for it. I agree that militia groups along the lines of those McVeigh 
was supposedly acting for are merely factions which wish to take over the 
state, not destroy it.

> It is precisely beause of this type of behaviour that
> people consider the militias and their sympathisers to
> be fascist in nature and a threat to the values they
> claim to defend.

Quite so, but "defending" society from a few fascists does not remove the 
responsibility of a government to govern properly in a minarchist 
fashion, nor indeed does it change the fact that government "evolves" to 
become invasive and unnaturally large. 

McVeigh was a highly deranged individial if he did bomb the building, 
when caught he was wearing a T-Shirt with the Jefferson quotation on it 
"The tree of liberty from time to time must be replenished with the blood 
of patriots and tyrants", McVeigh did not believe in personal liberty, 
supposedly (although this is media reported so I cannot fully believe it) 
McVeigh was just another loon who wanted to take over the government to 
turn it in his own preferred direction.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

> Hallam-Baker, realizing he is a soft target, wrote:
> 
> > Appologists for McVeigh should consider that his actions did not
> > advance the militia cause an iota, it destroyed it and along with
> > it much of the right wing fringe.
> 
>   Or perhaps just sent more people underground.
>   Many remarked that the Jim Bell arrest chilled the free speech
> of many list members but there are now at least two active AP Bots
> on the internet.
>   I haven't noticed anybody "apologizing" for McVeigh or Bell.
> There are merely those who act or who don't act.

I would say that the visible and government-vilified militia groups have 
been damaged by this, because of the killing of innocents. Where is the 
second AP bot, I know about the one at sympatico.......

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"