Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism

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In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
06/07/97 
   at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:

>I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
>only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
>targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.

Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)

It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
the consequences.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
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William Geiger <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes
> Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the 
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked 
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
> 
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> 
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Personally I would be happy for all UK police and military forces to
pull out of Northern Ireland.  Give it back to them, see if I care.
What difference can it make to me?  Foreign intervention is a waste of
time in my book.

However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
be part of Southern Ireland.  The people in NI have been there for
multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
England.  Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
where given land by the British government which was stolen from
native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
British government was brutal at that time, before they turned soft
and lost their empire.  (You might see parallels with the US, where
you guys are also living on stolen property).

Perhaps most NI people would not actually be that badly off if they
were part of SI.

You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
today, for a sense of perspective.

In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.  IRA
makes attempts to blow up UK politicians.  Managed to smuggle rocket
launcher in van with hole cut in roof to within a few hundred yards of
10 Downing St.  But they missed.  (Dimitri says: shame, shame, and
increases Sinn Fein campaign contributions in the hope they are better
funded next time.)

(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
hit, to save them the trouble).


You guys remember the Faulkland Islands thing under Thatcher?  Some
miniscule lump of rock with a few hundred sheep farmers on it?  UK
government sent warships etc at multiple billion cost.  Would've been
cheaper to desert rock, and give each and every inhabitant a cool $1
million relocation expenses.  But no, had to waste money because some
alterior motive, suitable missile outpost or something.

Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Should give the Irish (go Paddy) back Northern Ireland, Scottish
autonomy also (haggis home rule:-).  Wales (leeks) too, yeah.
Fragmented government is a good thing, divide and conquer.  I
understand the Muslims want their own government over here also!

Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),
they had a vote on it and lost a while back.  Wales is a poor part of
the country, some richer people have bought second home holiday
cottages in picturesque welsh country side.  Result: drives up prices
for poorer locals.  A few welsh started burning down such cottages.
Some Welsh also want independence.  They have road signs in English
and in a language which most of the locals can't even read.  Similar
thing in Southern Ireland.  (Desparately hanging on to heritage).

Adam

ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as
name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
for English.  US name is `Limey'.  OK `Yankees' :-) Vote Indian home
rule: Running Deer for president.

[thanks for the very informative message - much snipped]

Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> However, here are a few things you might be interested to know.  I
> understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to
> be part of Southern Ireland.

I don't think this has been put to a vote, but this is probably true.

>                               The people in NI have been there for
> multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> England.

Fine - let them stay, or emigrate to whatever other country will take them.
Maybe South Africa wants to increase its white population (kidding).
Or maybe the U.S. ought to increase it white population.

Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000 poll tax
should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds disbursed equally among
the NI population?

What if Uganda took a vote and the overwhelming majority decided to
invite the UK back to rule them and to pour capital in?

>           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.

Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

There are some protestants in SI, and no one's killing them on sight, AFAIK.
Wasn't Eamon de Valera a sephardic jew or something?

> You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> today, for a sense of perspective.

If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

> In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation
> blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy
> riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs,
> and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities.

Yep.  So does the CIA.  Maybe that's why the IRA isn't calling for
a vote in NI to join SI. :-)

> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

> they're saying after a while :-).  Not sure of Welsh and Irish names
> for English.  US name is `Limey'.

The English navy used by be plagued by the scurvy (vitamin C deficiency)
during the 18th and early 19th century. Then some bright guy came up with
the idea of storing lots of limes on the ships and forcing the seamen to
suck on them. It did cure the scurvy, but earned them the nickname.

ObTrivia: the official Russian name for lime is "LAJM".

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Dimitri Vulis <dlv@bwalk.dm.com> writes:
> Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
> >                               The people in NI have been there for
> > multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to
> > England.
> 
> Why is the rest of the UK obliged to cater to their desires?

Well I agree.  However I would guess that the people of NI could claim
if it suited that they _were_ english, and that the UK government was
therefor bound to provide military support, in the same way as for
borough of London say when it gets bombed by IRA.

That's socialism for you.  Say in the south of england (relatively
wealthy) we'd be better off if we didn't pay taxes to keep all the
unemployed in the north.

> What if the majority of the NI population felt that a special L1000
> poll tax should be imposed on the English, with the proceeds
> disbursed equally among the NI population?

That's called democracy you each vote to steal from other voters :-)

> >           Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors
> > where given land by the British government which was stolen from
> > native Irish about 300 years ago.  They have also intermarried.
> 
> Scottish descent, stricly speaking. Also at the rates the catholics
> are breeding, they'll be a minority soon.

I did hear that in the UK we'll all be in the minority to muslims by
2000 something for similar reasons.  (Don't have figures to back that
up, I'd guess it's exaggerated, but the trend is there, some
religions/nationalities have 6+ children each, whereas your average
honky has 1 or 2).

> > You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI
> > today, for a sense of perspective.
> 
> If you're such a strong believer in the rule of the majority :-), why
> should the NI protestants (who are a fraction of the total UK population)
> force the entire UK to do something that the rest of the UK doesn't want?

State police military is a socialist thing, the fact that they have
some claim to be english is enough justification in the eyes of
policians to interfere.  Obviously it's historical also.

IRA isn't at all popular in the UK either, peoples reactions are more
extreme than the UK military over there.  UK military is on best
behaviour, rules of engagement of no fire until fired upon, proof to
stand up in court etc.  Some soldier got tried and convicted for being
too trigger happy.  Soldiers don't like it over there, getting sniped
at, and not allowed to shoot back.  It is claimed that the military
know who all the IRA people are, but just can't pin anything on them
that would stick.  Your average UK person says: if you know who they
are why don't we send in the SAS and kill the bastards.

The IRA are a nuisance if for no other reason than they recently
altered UK law to remove right to silence because IRA suspects were
remaining silent, and with lack of evidence getting released.

So now, if you're silent, the judge can ask the jury to take this into
consideration (presumption of guilt, if you won't speak, you must have
something to hide).

Previously the converse was true, the judge was supposed to ensure the
jury understood that silence meant nothing.  You were obviously in
your best interests to say absolutely nothing.  As Duncan is fond of
pointing out, never say _anything_ to a policeman.  Your best tactic
was clearly not to even get involved in cross examination where you
could be made to look bad by clever lawyer even if completely
innocent, so no evidence, `no comment', `no comment' x 100, -> case
dismissed.

> > (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> > other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> > is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> > hit, to save them the trouble).
> 
> Is that the guys that Hallam Baker said he had asked to kill me? :-)

Guess so.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

> (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
> other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army
> is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
> hit, to save them the trouble).

There are several, I believe the main one is the RUC ;-)....

> Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland?

Probably just the usual image thing, to pull out of NI after so much 
brutality had been carried out and so much money spent now would be 
inviting a media barbeque.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

Adam,

To answer a few questions...

<snip>

>(I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on
>other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army

The Loyalists tend to be either UFF (Ulster Freedom Fighters) or UVF
(Ulster Volunteer Force) plus there will be various other groups too.

>is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to
>hit, to save them the trouble).

<snip>

>Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?),

Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP)

>ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part
>of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for
>Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as

Haggis is a stuffed sheeps stomach (I always thought that 'Jock' was the
English nickname for Scots?)

>name for Welshman.  Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland
>for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is
>they're saying after a while :-)

Likewise. I've only been here 3 months and still can't understand the local
yokel accent.

--
A Scotsman living and working south of the border.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               David Lucas - Test Engineer @ SCO Cambridge.
                          E-mail: davidlu@sco.com

 Opinions expressed within this message are my own and do not necessarily
            represent those of my employer * I am not a lawyer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> writes:

> In <Pine.LNX.3.91.970607230450.11734A-100000@fatmans.demon.co.uk>, on
> 06/07/97
>    at 11:11 PM, Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> said:
>
> >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the
> >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked
> >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country.
>
> Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
>
> It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> the consequences.

Paul,

The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".

The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
agree to peace talks.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

> > Well I can only see this as a good thing. :)
> >
> > It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish
> > soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer
> > the consequences.
> 
> Paul,
> 
> The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.

Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England 
don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that 
the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings, 
they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

> The UK is a democracy - supposedly it's up to the voters to decide if they
> want the UK to stay in NI, so the voters are being "persuaded".
> 
> The PLO used a similar successful strategy to convince Israeli voters to
> agree to peace talks.

One of the reasons I don`t really have a strong opinion one way or the 
other about the NI question is because I believe a British withdrawal 
would simply result in the replacement of one set of corrupt political 
rulers with another. The Irish parliament is no better than any other 
government, no suprise there.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > The reason why the IRA bombs (or threatens to bomb) targets all over the UK
> > is that they want to make the voting public so sick and tired of the status
> > quo in NI that they'll demand a pull-out, which is just what the IRA wants.
>
> Yes, I think you will also find that most people in mainland England
> don`t really have an opinion one way or the other, they vaguely feel that
> the British should pull out of NI because they want to stop the bombings,
> they also vaguely feel that would be giving in to "terrorists".

If the people in mainland England (and Scotland and Wales) are imprevious
to rational arguments (like, the UK should get the fuck out of NI because
they have no business being there :-) then perhaps that'll listen to
terrorism.  Perhaps not - such tactics seem to work better on some ethic
groups than on others, the the English took worse shit from the Germans
in WW II.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps