White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting

Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.

Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
Internet.

I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
liberties in the process. 

-Declan


On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Seth Finkelstein wrote:

> >> At 11:35 PM -0400 7/15/97, Michael Sims wrote:
> >>...But by lining up with those who intend to FORCE, by
> >>hook or crook, ratings on everyone, well, you're not sending the
> >>message I would think you would want to.
> 
> > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger@cdt.org>
> > As far as I know, this is not what's happening and you are reacting to ghosts
> 
> 	"I am the ghost of RSACi past". Such as when it nearly became a
> contractual requirement for all ISP's in the United Kingdom last year.
> Of course they didn't *have* to join up, and they didn't have to not
> be raided as child pornographers either. Not a ghost, but a spectre.
> 
> > Like you, CDT will be watching what the President says tomorrow
> > very carefully and will have something to say once he has spoken.
> 
> 	I'm sure you will. And I'm also sure it's going to be along
> the lines of "Sign up to this program because it's not censorship and
> if you don't, the government will get you".
> 
> ================
> Seth Finkelstein
> sethf@mit.edu
> 
> 
>

On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? 
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process. 
> 
> -Declan

Declan:

Did you forget your ;-) smiley face or can we quote you on that last
sentence? 

As far as I'm concerned, if you are forced to give up fundamental 
liberties the "game" is over  -- soon followed by "politics by other
means".

Our participation as citizens of this country is governed by contract. 
That contract is the constitution.  This is no game.  Either the employees
adhere to the tenets of that contract or the employers will fire them for
non-performance. 

Simple as that.

Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com

At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
>Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
>remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
>liberties in the process. 

Declan,

I think you made a phrasing error here.  Perhaps you meant to say that you
think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if
you want a gold-engraved invitation back."  To some people, it read like
you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to
'protect the children.'"  

Either way, there's not much difference there:  political speech MUST
remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking
their mind during a debate, then we've all lost.

However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game".
They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to
whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next.  Their concern is
for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't
get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers.  When
the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be
that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without
pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House
made a tactical error?

IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*.  Rather than
passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end
by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive
legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for
constituonal laws before we pass them at all.  According to the
Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took
the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the
biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation."

Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress:
if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as
unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole.  Debate
the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote,
you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution.  

We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because
the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end.

John
--
J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code.  Think
          of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'."
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Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> To: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@MIT.EDU>
> Cc: jseiger@cdt.org, jberman@cdt.org, fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
> 
> Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in
> Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not
> understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many
> ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process
> that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position
> on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being
> marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then?
> Obviously, you can't. So I respectfully suggest that Mr. Finkelstein
> disabuse himself of radical notions like opposing regulation of the
> Internet.
> 
> I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the
> Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to
> remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental
> liberties in the process.
> 
> -Declan
Why?  Why does Mr. Finkelstein need to play be Washington's "game"
rules?
I understand why you need to play by the rules.  As a Washington insider
you are between a rock and a hard place.  If you step outside the rules,
you loose your connections, your influince, and you livelyhood.  (No I
do
not consider being an insider to be bad.  I apreciate the flow of news
that
we might not otherwise get).

For those of us who are outside of the "game" (by choice or otherwise)
it does not make since to play.  Nobody in Washington listens to us (or
that is the way it seems).  To give up those fundamental liberties
simply
hurts us.  Insted we change the system by playing outside of the "game"
(such as writting strong crypto code and giving it away before
Washington
makes that illegal).

-Doug