Recreational pharmaceuticals by genetic engineering

I know this is off-topic for the list...

But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
be required for production).

--$teve

On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:

> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> 
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
>discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
>the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
>LSD."
>[...]
>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

And these technological developments will exacerbate the conflict between
the First Amendment and behavioral regulation which the Bernstein case has
already highlighted. "Informational liberty" and "behavioral liberty" are
becoming indistinguishable.


--
Greg Broiles                | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell:
gbroiles@netbox.com         | 
http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

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At 11:24 AM 7/10/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
>of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

But we are much closer to desktop fab stations for larger items.  You can 
already buy one to "print" 3-D parts from CAD files.  Good for model making 
but even good enough for other uses where "hard" hardness is not required.  
Pricey though.

>Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
>to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
>too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Course they haven't managed to ban "Submachine Guns for the Home Workshop" or 
compact "hobby" milling stations yet, have they.

DCF

"Use a lathe go to jail."
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At 10:06 AM -0700 7/10/97, Alan wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Steve Schear wrote:
>
>> I know this is off-topic for the list...
>>
>> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>> be required for production).
>
>I had expected someone to cross blue-green algae with the part of canibus
>that produces THC.  I would love to see something that would have the DEA
>try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
>like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)

Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
apparent.

BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
LSD."

(Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

It was developed from "ergot", a fungus that grows on rye.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.
> 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

Mushrooms are hard to grow unless you have a controlled environment.
(They tend to cross with other species of mushroom from what I have been
told.  A friend used to grow mushrooms commercially many years back.)

> BTW, this was a topic of conversation several years ago in the nanotech
> discussion group I was in: home chemistry with instructions dowloaded from
> the Net. Sort of a "Click here to download manufacturing instructions for
> LSD."
> 
> (Downloaded into a tabletop production machine, of course.)

The instructions for LSD production are already on the net, but not in a
nanotech format.  (HTML v66.6?)

Most of the instructions for LSD are bogus.  A friend sent me a huge
collection of bogus recipes from sci.chemistry from a few years back.
(They get losts of newbies who want to learn how to make LSD.)  My
favorite is the one that uses Foster's Lauger as a base.

> We are probably still several decades away from the mechanosynthesis form
> of nanotech, presumably less far away from biological forms.

I expect that we will see bioengeneered designer drugs within the next 10
years.  The methods for manufacture will not be widely distributed for a
much longer period...

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

When she figures out that such information is available, she will add it
on.  And it will not stop there...  The forces of sanitized thinking will
not stop until anything that could be a threat to them is illegal and/or
abolished.

Sometimes I think the Chinese had the right idea by making it impossible
for their civil servants to reproduce.

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Yep - and it takes the blame (or so historians believe) of the witch
hunts.  Idea was you'd go to someone's house, they'd cook food made with
the grains that were contaminated, you'd have an acid trip and claim them
to be in league with the devil and get them killed. :)
 
> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

While we're on the topic, let's not forget that we'll need some sort of
crypto as well -- we should have the little buggers only produce the drug
on demand when given a signed PGP message. :)  That way if the feds knock
down your door, they'll find no evidence.  Whenver you need your hit, you
ask the buggers to make you some, and you use it immediatly.

OTOH, there's something to be said about having fast acting yeast that
feeds on grass and other foliage (real grass, not canabis) and produces
tons of illegal substance. You could then simply fling this into the back
yards of LEA's everywhere, then call the cops on them.

Anyone know enough about DNA machine code to port PGP to yeast? <Grin>

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
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.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

Tim May writes:
> 
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

Ergot (Clavecps sp.), which grows on wheat, rye and other grasses.

> And there's that other type of fungus, the mushroom.

Psilocibe sp. (which grows in the new world)
and some members of the genus Amanita, found in europe and the new world.

The problem with many of these natural sources of hallucinogens
is that they contain other poisons- ergot alkaloid molecules
have an LSD molecule attached, but other parts of the alkaloid
cause gangrene and convulsions.  Hardly party material!

Psilocibe mushrooms usually cause vomiting.  Most Amanita species
have an lethal dosage which is uncomfortably close to the
effective dosage, not a good thing in a drug.  Amanita muscaria
however was used by the vikings to help induce their 'berserker'
state for battle.

The problem with these is that it's generally hard to seperate the
drugs from the poisons, to the point where if you have the knowledge
to do so you might as well just set up a factory to make the drugs
from cleaner and cheaper non-biological precursors.


> I expect Steve is right that someone will find a way to engineer a
> drug-producing common mold or yeast. The profit motive, per se, will not be
> much of an impediment, provided the costs of development are not huge. I
> can think of many who would participate, were any reasonable directions
> apparent.

I don't see how that's really any different than marijuana- dope
is a weed, it's so easy to grow that retarded alcoholics can grow it.
And a different cultivar of the same species (hemp) is a plant that's
incredibly useful commercially.  Yet it's still illegal to posess any member
of the species (or related species like C. indica).  If some smart
biologist 'fixed' ergot to make nice clean LSD, it'd just be made
illegal to posess grain that's got a certain species of mold on it.

[..]

> Such "dangerous knowledge" will join bombmaking instructions in being added
> to Fineswine's law. Downloading of instructuctions for NC machine tools,
> too, if the instructions are for zip guns and even real guns.

Everything that's not compulsory is illegal.



-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  Security and cryptography applications consulting.
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF

> >try to haul off people who have pond scum in their bird feeders and the
> >like.  (Anything that will make them look even more absurd...)
> Speaking of which, I recall that the origins of LSD were from some kind of
> fungus or "rust" found on some types of grain.

	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
of certain types of migraines.

Ergotamine relieves migraines by restricting the flow of blood to the
brain. The effects of ingesting large quantities of this substance are
left as an experiment to those for whom a mind isn't such a terrible thing
to waste.

On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, snow wrote:

> 	Ergot, a mold that grows on certain types of Rye or fescue, I forget
> which. This is used to make Ergotamine (imine?) which is used in treatment
> of certain types of migraines. 

-- 
Brian Minder; <stonedog@net-gate.com>
"I've continually said that the biggest problem with secure authentication is
that secure authentication is not possible." --Robert Costner; EFGa.

Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com> writes:

>
> I know this is off-topic for the list...

it's somewhat on-topic.

> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
> sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
> would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
> be required for production).

My understanding is that access to the eq needed for such hacking (or for
creating various harmful little bugs) is already very tightly watched.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

> I know this is off-topic for the list...
> But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
> yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
> recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like

	You mean like psilosybin (sp?) mushrooms?

At 10:21 PM 7/9/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?

Its a bit of work, but certainly doable. Interesting idea.

--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/

At 10:21 PM -0700 7/9/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>I know this is off-topic for the list...
>
>But why hasn't some cleaver graduate student engineered a common mold or
>yeast to yield easily extracted (or directly ingestible) common
>recreational pharmaceuticals?  Ideally it would be a perpetual source, like
>sour dough starter, and easily cultured.  Once distributed to the street it
>would be impossible to stop or track (since no controlled chemicals would
>be required for production).

You know, if Jim Bell was still contributing to the list, the chemist in
him would surely produce some posts on this.

Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
to the indictment.

And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this
> to the indictment.

Or he could hide it in cheese or other mold-bearing substances.  Would
make pizza and beer more fun...

> And "The Oregonian" could breathlessly headline: "Drug-Producing Molds
> Found in Home of Terror-Chemist."

When looking for sleezy headlines from the Oregano, look for the evening
edition.  They are the most sensationalist.  (My favorate is still "Guns a
part of fungus season.")

Here are a few possible headlines...

"Death cheese found in home of Munster-terrorist"
"Gudda tip brings in Cheesie Terrorist"
"Bell Threat to Portland Delis"

The permutations are endless...

alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> Then, when the narcs and BATFags searched his house and found the
> inevitable mold on the bread, the curdled milk, etc. (Jim is a bachelor,
> and a computer person, so the mold, etc. is inevitable) they could add this

I thought he lived with his parents?

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps