law as enemy: was Re: Jim Bell reference

Paul,

Ant>                 Makes me think the issue is the preservation of many
Ant> thousands of _unathorised_ taps.  What else could explain that viewpoint?

PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.

Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
of use to the public.


Ant> Incidentally, I'm against terrorism, child molestation etc etc. 
Ant> I'm confident most other cypherpunks are too, so no nonsense please
Ant> about free crypto supporters being backers of [crime of the month].

PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 

Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
which France had been invaded.

PB> Would you then say their actions were wrong? As for child molestation, 
PB> this is a clear cut case, most libertarians follow the basic rule that a 
PB> crime has to be a direct act of agression, and infringe the rights of 
PB> another person, therefore child molestation clearly comes into this 
PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
PB> position on this.

Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
those you'd regard as criminals.

My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.

Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

There's probably not much point in pursuing this discussion.


--
###############################################################
# Antonomasia   ant@notatla.demon.co.uk                       #
# See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/                         #
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> PB> Don`t cloud the issue: The simple fact is strong encryption can and will 
> PB> obstruct law enforcement agencies in their "fight" against terrorism, 
> PB> child pornography, drugs etc... good.
> 
> Strong widespread crypto will cut down on much crime in the form of
> electronic theft, blackmail etc.  I expect some obstruction of law
> enforcement, but not enough to outweigh the benefits.  Despite the
> occasionally glaring failures of a legal system it is still overall
> of use to the public.

Of course, but strong crypto is ideally suited for freeing restricted 
markets, that is one of its best features: it is a guerilla tool, and 
individual movements within markets are often one to one transactions, 
strong crypto can be used to conceal assasination payments, drugs 
transactions etc. from the police, and will thus free the markets. 
Of course strong crypto can also stop subversion of protocols, but that 
is a more social than political issue.


> PB> Once again, you fail to give adequate qualification to this statement, 
> PB> what forms of terrorism are you against: one mans terrorist is another 
> PB> mans freedom fighter.   Were the French resistance during WWII terrorists? 
> 
> Not everything is relative.  WW2 was a clearly recognised war, in
> which France had been invaded.

There are many other examples, the line is too hazy to be black on white. 

> PB> category, distributing pictures of children being molested, raped, 
> PB> buggered, tortured and killed is clearly not a crime. Please clarify your 
> PB> position on this.
> 
> Such photography would suggest at least cooperation with
> those you'd regard as criminals.

Not really, anonymous transfer of data along with use of a usenet type 
system means people with pornographic images on their computers need 
never have cooperated with child molesters or pornography producers, or 
even know who, or where, they are. 

> My position is toward the Trei/Sameer end of the scale and away from
> the extreme anarchist views of you, TCM and Jim Bell.  Not that you 3 are
> always wrong, but in the issue of 'law always enemy' I completely fail
> to see where you get your ideas.  Sufficiently clarified ?

It depends on your perspective with regard to valid systems of law, "law 
always enemy" is not a defensible position where a valid system of law is 
in place, the current systems are not valid and persecute the innocent, I 
cannot see any case where I can give praise to the whole system because 
of a few isolated cases where it`s form of law coencides with my own.

> PB> Above are two examples of why strong cryptography is a good thing, law 
> PB> enforcement should be routinely obstructed as often as possible.
> 
> Are you going to post your home address and holiday plans on the list
> so we give you the chance to gloat over failing law enforcement ?

I rarely go on holiday (UK term for vacation for US cpunks) because if 
someone does burgle my house I want to be here, it would probably be 
worth them trying just so I could catch them <evil laugh>...

I believe in aiding law enforcement as much as possible where a genuine 
crime, such as murder, rape, mugging etc. has been commited, but I would 
refuse to assist in any enquiries into victimless "crimes"...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"