Keepers of the keys

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"


	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999

At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote, quoting Joe Shea, for
those of you who can't follow attributions very well:

>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999

Judges are human, too. "Agencies don't break the law -- people do". The
next Ames could be a judge on any Federal court. Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:25 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

If you want to diddle with GAK provisions to make them just a little
more palatable (honey to make the pill go down?), I prefer my old one
from 1993 (and 4 and 5 and 6 ...).

Have the key split 12 ways, by XOR, so you need all 12, all have to 
agree the desire is justified and all can do whatever they want
with the information that the key request came in and was or was
not satisfied (by them):

1)	ACLU
2)	NRA
3)	Republican Nat'l Committee
4)	Democratic Nat'l Committee
5)	N Y Times
6)	Washington Post
7)	Christian Coalition
8)	Libertarian Party
9)	FBI
10)	NSA
11)	Speaker of the House of Representatives
12)	U S Supreme Court

Deliver requests by US Postal Service.

Have each session key released individually
(by having the sender split the session key 12 ways and
encrypt each piece under the public key of a different
agency listed above).

All requests include the name of the target and the
reason for the suspicion.  Since all the above can be
trusted, there will be no compromise of law enforcement
objectives.

 - Carl




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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+

At 3:25 PM -0700 7/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
>
>Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
>Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
>and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
>government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
>organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
>communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

Beware this line of reasoning.

The fundamental reason why I will not turn over my keys, my diaries, my
tapes, my writings to some third party has nothing to do with this sort of
issue.

I really don't care if the Feds escrow their keys with the Pope...my keys
will *not* be given to anyone other than whom I choose to give them to.
Period.

All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold
"escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds
to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into
their hands.

Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
[usual rant deleted]
> 
> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.

However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
nuance. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.

I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

-Declan



On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 
> -- 
> Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
> kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
> PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
> http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
> 
>

On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

Patriotism is the *FIRST* refuge of a scoundrel.  (The second is prayer.)

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
> 
> Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to
> head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the
> CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel
> when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.
> 
> I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.

That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
hallowed founding fathers thought:

>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?

Pardon my patriotic tears...

Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
in after a respectful delay... 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

> That is *exactly* what Tim is doing.  He is wrapping himself in the
> flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the 
> hallowed founding fathers thought:

Foo. Tim has never claimed to have a true vision, as in all things it is 
highly individual and subjective, nor does he claim that even if his 
vision of their intentions were correct it would be the only correct 
interpretation. An argument based on discrediting the other persons 
perspective rather than trying to make an objective accessment is 
unlikely to ever be productive, clearly you must have no opinion 
whatsoever on this or any other subject or you would be claiming to have 
the one true vision of the reality of the situation, wouldn`t you???.

> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Pardon my patriotic tears...
> 
> Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> it.  Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are
> impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes
> in after a respectful delay... 

Yea, verily.

Surely Kent you are not claiming that the founding fathers would have 
considered it right to stand by passively and allow the government to 
pass laws allowing them to intrude on citizens private communications and 
stored data?

And your implied contention that the congress proponents of GAK are 
entitled to freely propose such legislation is flawed in two ways:

1. Elected poloticians do not have totally unrestricted free speech, this 
is because they are employees of the state and are bound by contract. You 
would not expect a senator to last long if he stood on the steps of 
congress and loudly proclaimed "kill all the niggers". This very same 
contract also involved their swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, 
hence proposing or voting for unconstitutional laws is a breach of this 
contract.

2. Further, the speech of elected officials can directly infringe the 
rights of citizens within their jurisdiction, a congress-critter 
proposing a GAK system or speaking in favour of a compulsory GAK bill is 
shouting fire in a crowded theatre, it is not pure speech.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
>At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>[usual rant deleted]
>>>
>>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>>
>>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>>
>>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>>nuance.
>>
>I think Tim is thinking of:
>
>	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
>	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
>
>which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
principles. Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
(and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
Er, I mean, "the Government."

All in the name of stopping "subversion" and other bad things? Jefferson's
revolution every 20 or so years would certainly qualify as subversion...no
doubt Jefferson would be interested to learn that the Government proposes
and end to all such plottings.

No doubt the government of Myanmar (Burma) will be anxious to have the
escrowed keys of the rebels in the jungles. (I pointed this out to Phil
Zimmermann and other PGP, Inc. employees at a Cypherpunks meeting several
months ago, as Phil and others described mounting pressures to make PGP
acceptable for government purchase orders, and "discussions" PGP, Inc. was
having with government bodies.)

Recall the "Enemies List" I posted several months back...basically, there
are hundreds and hundreds of classes of people who are enemies of various
governments. Jews, rebels, IRA, Mormons, Scientologists, Red Brigade,
Militia of Montana, and on and on. All of these groups would feel the brunt
of any key escrow policies here or abroad.

(You do all know, I presume, that wiretaps and surveillance can be gotten
without a normal court order if _any_ foreign contact is suspected? Cf.
details on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, the special
court meeting in Arlington, VA, and even more recent, sweeping legislation
a few years ago, the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 (or language similar to
this). It basically gave new sweeping powers to surveil and wiretap any
organizations or persons suspected of supporting terrorist
organizations....I'd say this makes the Cypherpunks list and all those on
it eligible for warrantless surveillance. As if we didn't know this.
Whether the Feds bother is another matter, of course. But they could.)

And speaking of quotes, Ben Franklin had a pretty good one with his quote
about those favoring security over liberty deserving neither.

BTW, notice how in the comments of reporter stooge Shea, and weapons lab
stooge Crispin, the debate has shifted back to _domestic_ key escrow? Shea
was talking about stopping crimes by requiring keys be escrowed with
Circuit Court judges--clearly he was talking about domestic key escrow.

How many Amendments would this be in violation of? The First, by
proscribing that only certain forms of speech (escrowed key forms) are
acceptable. The Fourth, by violating the "secure in one's papers and
possessions" (or similar) language, as key escrow would let any bored clerk
or snooping agent examine one's papers. The Fifth, against compelled
testimony against oneself. And probably others.

But I'm sure we can count on the EFF, ECPA, EPIC, and other industry groups
to craft a reasonable compromise which will ensure continuing profits to
corporate sponsors while eviscerating the rights of ordinary Americans.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 09:35:41AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> >>[usual rant deleted]
> >>>
> >>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> >>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> >>
> >>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> >>
> >>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> >>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> >>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> >>nuance.
> >>
> >I think Tim is thinking of:
> >
> >	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
> >	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
> >
> >which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
> 
> I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general
> principles.

The general principle Tim espouses is, apparently, "Kill all who 
oppose, and anyone else remotely associated"  -- witness his calls to 
use the "nuclear disinfectant" on Washington, for example.  This is not, 
I believe, what Jefferson had in mind.

However, I consider such a sentiment either insane or not intended
seriously.  Assuming Tim is not insane, then he doesn't intend his
statements to be taken seriously. 

> Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a
> literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.

I can't resist pointing out what is usually associated with bliss. 
:-) 

I must point out, also, that I agree with Tim that GAK is bad.  
However, I believe that his rants actually do more harm than good to 
the cause.  

> Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots
> would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there
> are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys
> (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King?
> Er, I mean, "the Government."

Since they are just proposals, perhaps their reaction would be words
like "I don't agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death
to protect your right to say it." Or they might say something like
"the antidote to bad speech is good speech".  I don't think they would
make a general call to anihilate all opponents of their point of view.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> [usual rant deleted]
> > 
> > Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
> > Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
> 
> Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
> 
> However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
> death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
> me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
> nuance. 
> 

The patriotism quote has null benefit because it can be used against
anyone that has "patriotic" principles that are different than yours.

Thus all patriots are scoundrels when they disagree with you.

This is the same as name calling.

Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
is full of weak-minded fools.  This is the essential problem of
the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
will via "the vote".

The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
of their head labeled "fear".

May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
(self-induced or not).

We have met the enemy and he is us.

"There is no one so thoroughly enslaved as those who falsely 
believe they are free." (unknown)


Jim Burnes
jim.burnes@ssds.com

On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> 
[...]
> Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> is full of weak-minded fools.

Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.

> This is the essential problem of
> the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> will via "the vote".

?

> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with
> an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) 
> and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the
> media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal opinions, thorougly
> pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side
> of their head labeled "fear".

Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
eliminated.

> May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia
> (self-induced or not).

No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

(this is a mail messages that got stuck in the
queue a long time ago and just came out)

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
> > 
> [...]
> > Re: Tim May's quote.  May is pointing out the truism that the world
> > is full of weak-minded fools.
> 
> Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.
> 

I don't care.  IQ scores cluster about a bell curve.  Someone has to
fill out the left side.  Most of the left side don't understand
bell curves and that worries me.

> > This is the essential problem of
> > the illusory democracy that we live in today.  Since in our 
> > illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their
> > will via "the vote".
> 
> ?

The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
without stop.


>> The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness
>> with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping
>> Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as
>> they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit.  Their personal
>> opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them
>> through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear".


> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

I never said that.  They count and I might say that giving them
the right to vote soothes their nerves because it gives them the
illusion of excercising (rather innefectual) self-determination.
Truth be told, the kinds of issues solved by the "vote" are minor
ones.  Somewhere (circa 1938) the constitutional republic was 
de-activated and replaced by something horrible and malevolent.
Meanwhile all the real power is wielded by a fascist melding of 
powerful corporations, politicians and the military/police state.

I think it quite likely that people are born into this world with some
combination of agression, intelligence and empathy.  The eight
combinations of these three variables determine the natural castes
in life.

Watch out for the one with high agression, high intelligence and
relatively little empathy.

I do internet security consulting for a living and get a chance to
interview everyone from the lowest engineers up to CEO's.  Its very
interesting to see what happens when we turn in our security 
vulnerability reports and see how the people react at the top.
Its a great reflection of character.  Many VPs run scurrying trying
to cover their asses and cover up the facts.  They will destroy
their underlings and force blame on them even when its clear
that their management decisions brought about the current situation.
Often their talent for deceit undermines the very security we
set out to establish putting at risk billions of dollars of
other peoples money.

Relatively little changes from the playground.

The worst are the ones that beligerantly assert that there
is no security problem and how dare we suggest that there
is.  These types are very dangerous because they are not
just reactive, they are pro-active and will destroy the
messengers to cover up their insecurity.  Their tactics are
very clever, quick and decisive.

For whatever its worth....

Actually I'm tired of stating the obvious.  What are the
current outstanding cypher projects?  I'd rather be
writing code. What I need is one more project on the
burner.


Jim Burnes

"How do you explain school to higher intelligence?"
                        Elliot to his brother in ET

> The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to
> excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote.  Somehow, even though we've
> had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse
> without stop.

	"even though", or "because"?

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:

> Right.  So those people simply don't count, and might as well be
> eliminated.

Butthead: Whoa!  That was cool!
Bevis: I like stuff that's like, um, you know, cool, huh huh, huh huh. 
Butthead: Me too, but I hate stuff that sucks
Bevis: Yeah, yeah, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: huh huh, huh huh.
Bevis: Hey Butthead, let's eliminate something...
Butthead: Yeah, let's go take a dump on Kent's head..  Huh huh.
Bevis: huh huh, huh huh...

> No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy.  But he is a very
> clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.  

Bevis: He said fellow, huh huh, huh huh, huh huh.
Butthead: Yeah, yeah, and then he said impressive.
Bevis: We're there dude!
Butthead: Yeah, Kent is a wuss, he like works for the NSA or something
Bevis: Yeah, he works for your butt, fartknocker.
Butthead: Huh huh, huh huh, shuddup before I smack you Bevis.
Kent: I am Spookholio, come out with your passphrases down (whoa, that was
cool, yeah um, huh huh, huh huh.)
Kent: I need access to your bunghole.  Grease up now citizen unit.
Bevis: Whoa, that was cool or something
Butthead: This sucks, change the channel.
Kent: Are you threatening me? Government Access to Keys Now!
Bevis: Kent is getting lame.  Yeah, I'd rather go back to school than
       watch him.
Butthead: Yeah, what a wuss, even we wouldn't give him  our passwords.
Bevis: Yeah, let him spank his own monkey.
Butthead: Huh huh, yeah, huh huh.
Kent: I am the great Spookholio, boioioioing!  I need access to your butt.
Butthead: Shut up Kent before I smack you.
Kent: Bend over now! And pay for the vaseline(tm) All will bend over to
      the creat Spookholio!  I need GAK for my bunghole.
Bevis: yeah, yeah, shutup asswipe.
Butthead: You fart knocker.
Bevis: Hey, Butthead, let's leave or something... this sucks...
Butthead, Uh, huh huh, yeah Kent, go take a dump or something
Bevis: He's like, pretending to be Cornholio or something...
Kent: Are you threatening me?
Butthead: yeah, what a lame poser, dude...
Bevis: this sucks
Kent: You buttmunch.  I'll get Louie Freeh after you..
Butthead: Kent you schill, you suck choads.
Bevis: yeah, yeah...
Butthead: Is that government shit coming out of his mouth?
Bevis: yeah, he's got, like diarhea of the mouth or something...
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha
B&B: Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh, that was cool!

... Now back to more regularly scheduled MTV videos ....

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must  |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die.  And I hate cough  |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?"                     |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die.     |.....
======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
>through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
>it.

Speaking of Clinton,

"If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller

On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 09:05:23AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
> >On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric
> >through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match
> >it.
> 
> Speaking of Clinton,
> 
> "If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue
> Philip-Morris."  --Dennis Miller

:-)

I should have used Freeh for an example.


-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
>[usual rant deleted]
>>
>> Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what
>> Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
>
>Amazing.  Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>
>However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me
>death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes
>me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this
>nuance.
>
I think Tim is thinking of:

	"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time,
	 with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

which, of course, was written by Jefferson.

-- Marshall

Marshall Clow     Aladdin Systems   <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu>

"In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and
Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market
system." --  CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997

Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:

> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.

Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?

How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

-- 
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially 
without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic 
over.

The real issue, IMHO, is given in my 
http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/avss.html

Hitting closer to home for those of us who design crypto:

Our job is to permit Alice to communicate to Bob (or Alice at a later time) 
without Eve getting anything from that communication.

			+---+
			| E |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

			
The gov't wants us to achieve that goal but permit Dorothy the detective, D, to 
have access:


			+---+
			| D |
			+---+
			  ^
  +---+		  |		  +---+
  | A |-------------+---------->| B |
  +---+				  +---+

Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E from 
D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon?  The LA 
Intelligence unit?  ....?

Meanwhile, the system to allow D but not E is hugely more complex than the 
system which prohibits both D and E.  And, as I argue elsewhere, 
<http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/ukgak/>, good strong non-GAK crypto in the 
hands of criminals should help law enforcement in their surveillance effort -- 
because:

1)	it encourages criminals to talk about their crimes with other criminals
2)	some percentage of those "other criminals" will be plants, informers or 
turned,
	thus giving law enforcement an intelligence boon
3)	traffic analysis of these criminal conversations is not inhibited

 - Carl

At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com>
>To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
>Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
>
>
>	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, 
>so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the 
>US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of 
>the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Best,
>
>Joe Shea
>Editor-in-Chief
>The American Reporter
>joeshea@netcom.com
>http://www.newshare.com:9999
>
>
>
>

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison  cme@cybercash.com   http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|CyberCash, Inc.                      http://www.cybercash.com/    |
|207 Grindall Street   PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 |
|Baltimore MD 21230-4103  T:(410) 727-4288  F:(410)727-4293        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>, on 07/18/97 
   at 05:27 PM, Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com> said:

>Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling.  How can we tell E
>from  D, as crypto designers?  Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D?  Nixon? 
>The LA  Intelligence unit?  ....?

They are all "E" the only difference is that the "D's" stole our money to
finance their operations against us.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
>amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point
>blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of
>the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?

Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the
Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI
and our most secret security agencies to use the very same
government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence
organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and
communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.

--Steve

Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> 
> >       Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> > so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> > US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> > privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> > the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> 
> Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> 
> How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

It doesn't matter who holds the keys, the problems involved are
essentially the same.  Such powers are always abused.  

Getting back to the courts, don't tell me you (joe) are intending to
give our keys to the same courts who sign wiretap orders on a whim are
you?  The courts haven't proven themselves any more trust worthy than
other branches of government.  Furthermore, it is very difficult to take
such powers out of the hands of the courts. How will you fight something
like this, take it to court? 

> --
> #!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
> $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
> lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)

Hey! it's the RSA export-A-sig.  I can recognize it anywhere...
-- 
					KORO
"In view of the present world situation," said the parlor philosopher,
"the best thing that can happen to a man is not to be born at all in the
first place. But I doubt that even one man in a hundred thousand is that
lucky."

[fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
basics of liberty. Disgusting.]


At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
>Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
>
>> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
>> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
>> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
>> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
>> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
>
>Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
>
>How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
>also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.

I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
diaries are *mine*.

I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
beside the point.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

FYI, Joe Shea filed one of the lawsuits against the CDA, Shea v. Reno, on
his own. He refused the join the ACLU's lawsuit against the act, calling
them pro-porn or somesuch. He's calmed down a bit since then,I think. His
lawsuit was put on hold by the SupCt while Reno v. ACLU was decided,then
the lower court's decision was summarily affirmed. Ironically, Shea was
represented by the same law firm that lost the Pacifica case.

I have a PCWorld article I wrote about Shea's suit a year+ ago at:
   http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/

-Declan


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> [fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible
> amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the
> basics of liberty. Disgusting.]
> 
> 
> At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
> >Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
> >
> >> 	Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys,
> >> so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the
> >> US Courts?  That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible
> >> privacy concerns.  One has the sense that once they get into the hands of
> >> the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
> >
> >Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
> >
> >How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts?  We should
> >also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
> 
> I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and
> diaries are *mine*.
> 
> I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic
> concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is
> beside the point.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]

At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
>without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
>over.
>

It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.

Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.

I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
language they seem to understand.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I 
don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement 
agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of 
occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of 
those, too.

Best,

Joe Shea
Editor-in-Chief
The American Reporter
joeshea@netcom.com
http://www.newshare.com:9999


On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:

> 
> [I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the
> locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the
> Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]
> 
> At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially
> >without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic
> >over.
> >
> 
> It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some
> reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.
> 
> Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.
> 
> I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous
> contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only
> language they seem to understand.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
> Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
> ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
> Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
> tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
> W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
> Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

At 9:15 PM -0700 7/18/97, Joe Shea wrote:
>	And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better
>yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him.  Then he won't
>kill again.  I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure
>people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find
>in the maze of the Internet.  Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't
>think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out.  There are
>plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and
>nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe.  I see no
>reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I

Why should we be "defenseless against them"?

Why should we be "defenseless" against those who plot crimes behind locked
doors, with curtains drawn? Why not simply enter at will?

And why be "defenseless" against those who speak in whispers, or those who
speak in languages the State and Defense Departments have no translators
for? Imprison the Navajo code talkers for speaking in an unapproved
language.

And why should the State be defenseless against those like Winston Smith
who keep illegal, unescrowed diaries? They might be plotting to move
nuclear weapons.

>don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement
>agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of
>occasions.  Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals --
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand,
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.  Of course,
>a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of
>those, too.
>
>Best,


Fuck you with all your "best" bullshit. You are the enemy.

My keys are my keys, period. If any Ninth Circuit stooge wants them, he'll
have to deal with my (illegal by their bullshit laws) AR-15.

You, of course, are quite welcome to voluntarily "escrow" your crypto keys,
your house keys, your car keys, and the codes to your diary with the local
or circuit judge of your choice. Just don't volunteer _my_ keys.

Got it?

Vermin like you are what is wrong with this country, and the reasons the
militias are gaining strength every day. A fucking house-cleaning is in
order.

--TCM

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:15 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe Shea wrote:
>Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- 
>would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no
>more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail.  On the other hand, 
>if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help
>to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.

The gov't doesn't give any KE agent, judge or otherwise, permission to see the 
actual decrypted traffic to make sure it matches the excuse given on the 
request for access.  The gov't can always come back and say, "Well, he didn't 
say anything useful so we didn't record anything -- thanks for the key anyway."

If the gov't had to get content itself from a judge -- or, better, from the 
NYTimes, Wash Post, ACLU, etc. -- then maybe we'd be closer to a politically 
workable answer.  That is, it would be valueless as a covert intelligence tool.

 - Carl

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+------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Carl M. Ellison       cme@acm.org    http://www.clark.net/pub/cme |
|    PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84   E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2        |
+-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+