Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)

? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:

>I have always found such arms races pointless and unproductive.  Now
>instead of paying a small amount of money to the goverment you have to pay
>a massive amount of money for a securaty system.  Big thing with video
>camers, motion sensors and plungomatic securaty gards.

  Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
just pay a small amount of money for the security system"? Or do you live
in a different reality to the rest of us, whose cops are so fuck-awful that
we have to both pay their wages and the obscene costs of our corrupt legal 
system, then pay extra to actually protect ourselves? Guns and cameras are
cheap compared to paying donut-hogs to examine rectums with plungers.

  CopPlunger

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 24 Aug 1997, Jenaer Mixmaster Anonserver wrote:

[...]

>   Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
> government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
> just pay a small amount of money for the security system"?

No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
in crimes.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAG1+aQK0ynCmdStAQHbdAQAs+FjGHCvbU1co8k+3mro9A0ZA0PzGpDZ
uLRASiSWVN5cN8A8/OkrSQXEZBSXfctlAxeEXWthnMkf0+OxnS8+zKfkiJRtotyz
RZwsclFRICw/tsak2af73Ahijbmt44Wsc3fZ/BB1IHYfhftx9fg+jnqx5VxsyXT5
cJhrAl6P3W8=
=dzpn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97 
   at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>>   Uh, don't you mean "instead of paying a large amount of money to the
>> government and a small amount of money for a security system, you now
>> just pay a small amount of money for the security system"?

>No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
>cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
>in crimes.

Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

This seems *much* cheaper then the $25-$30,000 being spent per Welfare
leach right now not to mention the billions being spent in overhead in the
varrious government agencies that manage welfare.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNAH2zI9Co1n+aLhhAQGLewQAl5xCXzlkKIXHFgSHw6MlMPUregRUeQdP
J1fzGeoYUtNsGByWV7huku3Zqla64m+D1Z+H87EKoxiLBCOC0bwXmAvo1e3gLAIL
1fkx6To4qcFeDPANZ/w4rNxAX8pSbrUd3HrMnDKHTOI6SvbdEwR/X+J4ExLngw/d
VEI4C9z5HF8=
=jFBr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97
>    at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

[...]

> >No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
> >cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
> >in crimes.
> 
> Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
> be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

Of cause what a great soltion.

You stole from me.
*BANG*

You raped my sister
*BANG*

You smuggeled drugs.
*BANG*

You smuggled crypo.
*BANG*

You have political views that are diffrent to mine
*BANG*
*BANG*
*BANG*

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAKM46QK0ynCmdStAQEwSQP/eTbrAcXWcdcxj+hDP4HTUdCN/PyA0CGZ
ZgdsCAEXbuuP9Ic9wwnBrf0dUXRF40MToNVo+Oy/a/07YB1jGlCt5q9jx/IRCQiW
hk5NtrXe2iTvrkU2wl/XpT7GxHrxv0vCPmQCN2G5jIaC+GCcF6/nw8nKgDMIvqHa
7Tc4RPzR4w4=
=L2tY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826175626.2131D-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97 
   at 05:59 PM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> In <Pine.LNX.3.93.970826024015.104C-100000@shirley>, on 08/26/97
>>    at 02:42 AM, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
>> <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> said:

>[...]

>> >No I mean what I said,  resurch indercates that welfare is
>> >cheeper then law enforcement and securaty for equile amounts of reduction
>> >in crimes.
>> 
>> Bullshit. The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
>> be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

>Of cause what a great soltion.

>You stole from me.
>*BANG*

yep


>You raped my sister
>*BANG*

yep

>You smuggeled drugs.
>*BANG*

Nope

>You smuggled crypo.
>*BANG*

Nope

>You have political views that are diffrent to mine
>*BANG*
>*BANG*
>*BANG*

Nope


As is the first two cases the "criminal" has violated my property &
family. Such crimes are worthy of immediate death. You steal, you assault
or threaten me or my family you have committed suicide.

It is a quite simple and effective philosophy: 

"You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
and I leave you alone."

Even someone like you can understand such a philosophy.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNALBpI9Co1n+aLhhAQETSgP/dEQCgZy1ldjrExbJ+AnKLiwua96tamdE
mbRuDe7R0kWFKQwy2BxpzD15J2RWb5tHFxz2sapYHkjrjh2HpY742mHuEwY8Cu38
vrr3eYoD5lqDwpokMqZpHpJp2jgX1MzE+4CNwpX+4cpiO0o+d7fdLcBhZB49hpHU
6eZ8y3TnDpA=
=YHXL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

[...]

> "You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> and I leave you alone."

Thats fine and good.  But if I can't trust the goverment to folow its own
rules and uphold liberty how can I trust you?  And how can I trust the
next person? and the next? ...


Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay?   ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument

David Formosa <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > "You fuck with me, my family, or my property you die. You leave me alone
> > and I leave you alone."
> 
> Thats fine and good.  But if I can't trust the goverment to folow its own
> rules and uphold liberty how can I trust you?  And how can I trust the
> next person? and the next? ...

It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
governments.

If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).

That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
long.

So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
work out better than governments.

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:

[...]

> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).

Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to beleave
that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?

> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
> long.

Nor did the wild west.

> So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
> work out better than governments.

So I am relying on peaple basicly being fair.  On that ground we might as
well have no laws because everybody will just act fairly.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNAUB7KQK0ynCmdStAQG4zwQAu+TVZoq8V7/4OBmCH1l/XHwApNx5OYOK
CJi4RlC5Q+8QeLDGwy/GZWhS1/yEseuAeeTFlyVKcjaJB2PJTi3+NGYYhFhwNO7z
Vf7gV/TQ9yF/WFPnKlbr5JzfpotRG6/tzev/9Rq6VYEdlGOQT5ZF6D/4Qi7Bcjqu
uQh3s82FJ9g=
=i5ns
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:46AM -0700, Jonathan Wienke wrote:
> >
> >And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
> >you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
> >genocides in human history.
> 
> Excuse me, but if you are referring to the Old West, you are seriously
> misinformed.

I believe he was referring to native americans.

>  While there certainly was violent crime, the murder rate
> (excluding self-defense, deaths from wars, etc.) was actually lower than it
> is today.  I came across a doctoral thesis written several years ago that
> did a statistical analysis of population data and newspaper obituaries in
> cities like Tombstone from around 1850-1890.  The conclusion of the paper
> was that while the drinking/gambling/red light districts were certainly
> violent places, in general, there was less crime than there is today.  The
> life of criminals is hard when everyone is armed, and when the justice
> system actually executes convicted murderers in a timely fashion.  (Capital
> punishment is the only treatment for criminals that has a 0% recidivism rate.)

1.  There are lots of doctoral theses that are seriously flawed.  Off 
the top, you mention that "self-defense" was excluded.  That begs the 
question -- you now have to define self-defense.
2.  Of course the "old west", as usually portrayed, is largely a myth.
3.  Raw crime rates are not that useful -- go to Iran or Iraq.
4.  The fact remains that settlers established governments and laws, 
and did *not* leave enforcement to the individual.

> Of course, the primary flaw in your logic is that you assume anyone who
> wants to own a gun is deranged or unbalanced somehow, and that gun
> ownership causes crime.

Oh piffle.  No such assumption was stated.  You are erecting a
strawman so you can stand on a soapbox and shoot it full of holes. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>>> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy 
>for
>>> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned 
>citizens
>>> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>>
>>Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to 
>beleave
>>that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?
>>
>>> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>>> long.
>>
>>Nor did the wild west.
>>
>
>And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
>you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
>genocides in human history.

Excuse me, but if you are referring to the Old West, you are seriously
misinformed.  While there certainly was violent crime, the murder rate
(excluding self-defense, deaths from wars, etc.) was actually lower than it
is today.  I came across a doctoral thesis written several years ago that
did a statistical analysis of population data and newspaper obituaries in
cities like Tombstone from around 1850-1890.  The conclusion of the paper
was that while the drinking/gambling/red light districts were certainly
violent places, in general, there was less crime than there is today.  The
life of criminals is hard when everyone is armed, and when the justice
system actually executes convicted murderers in a timely fashion.  (Capital
punishment is the only treatment for criminals that has a 0% recidivism rate.)

Of course, the primary flaw in your logic is that you assume anyone who
wants to own a gun is deranged or unbalanced somehow, and that gun
ownership causes crime.  There are at least 200 million (registered) guns
in the USA, (no reliable figures are available for the quantity of
illegally imported, homemade, and otherwise unregistered weapons) and at
least half of the households in the USA have at least one gun.
Miraculously enough, most people are not murderers or violent criminals,
and even the rate of accidental firearm death/injury has steadily declined
despite increases in the rate of gun ownership.

I had a gun in my pocket when my wife told me she was having an affair with
one of her co-workers, and yet 18 months later, both she and the "other
man" are both alive and healthy--no bullet holes.  I have not even
threatened to misuse firearms in such a manner, since that accomplishes
nothing more than exchanging one set of problems for a new, and more
annoying set.  (Being cheated on sucks, but I am sure that being
anal-rammed by a bunch of HIV+ fat guys in prison sucks even worse.)
Amazingly enough, most people in America have more in common with me than
Colin Ferguson.  (He's the guy who did the Long Island commuter train
murders.)

It really isn't that hard to figure out that shooting a guy breaking
through your bedroom window at 3 AM with a crowbar and a TEC-9 is a Good
Thing, (at least if you value your continued existence, and that of your
family) while shooting someone giving you the finger on the way in to work
is a Bad Thing.  In the second case, there is no threat to your life
involved, so there is no reason to kill anyone.  In the first case, there
is.  Is this brain surgery?


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy

--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pgp00006.pgp"
Content-Description: "PGP signature"

LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogUEdQIGZv
ciBQZXJzb25hbCBQcml2YWN5IDUuMApNZXNzYWdlSUQ6IHN5VnpIVTJKK1Yv
ZnNzZEd1eWRkTmlVZ2gvSElGWnBFCgppUUEvQXdVQk5BV2JtOEpGMGtYcXB3
M01FUUs3c1FDZ2hFSkVnVXNacXZSSnNaNkxBeUVmMDN0UWMzWUFuM21WCnJn
eVNUdUx6dUFkWHlPQlQ1ejVWdUh5SQo9TzZLUwotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lH
TkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K
--Boundary..3980.1071713726.multipart/signed--

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 14:43 28.08.97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Adam Back wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy 
for
>> ultra minor infractions [...] relatives, friends, or concerned 
citizens
>> will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>
>Dosn't help the poor person who got shot dose it?  Am I mad to 
beleave
>that getting killed is a reduction of basic civil liberties?
>
>> That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>> long.
>
>Nor did the wild west.
>

And nor the innconent bystanders. The 'you pissed me off - bang bang 
you're dead' mentality was the reason for one of the largest 
genocides in human history.

>> So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should 
easily
>> work out better than governments.
>
>So I am relying on peaple basicly being fair.  On that ground we 
might as
>well have no laws because everybody will just act fairly.
>

People, and indeed all animals, are inherently selfish. That's life. 


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNAVSTPzOjjBJiFUeEQLpTACfacI9DbWPxPn8q/4S59Rz1nasYCUAoKXW
oWYBNaVqLlZi8ATJQLO0sT1X
=CQT/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

>The majority on increased crime from the Welfare leaches could
>be handled with a $200 shotgun and a $0.50 Deer Slug.

Having had direct experience with a few of said welfare leeches, this is
the course I have taken.  Winchester makes an excellent pump shotgun, the
1300 Defender model, which (last time I checked) lists for $196 at
Wal-Mart.  Mine has a 7-round magazine and an 18" barrel.  (I'm not sure if
the 7-round model is still available--I purchased mine just prior to
passage of Klinton's Krime Bull.)  With a tactical flashlight mounted under
the barrel (with the power switch mounted in the front grip) and a
SideSaddle shell carrier mounted to the reciever, one has the capability to
effectively deal with rude strangers invading one's home.

I will never foment trouble or provoke a fight, but anyone attempting to
kill or injure myself or my family should ensure their health insurance
covers lead poisoning.


Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

When everyone is armed, criminals fear everyone, not just the police.

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

US/Canadian Windows 95/NT or Mac users:
Get Eudora Light + PGP 5.0 for free at http://www.eudora.com/eudoralight/
Get PGP 5.0 for free at http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pgp-form.html
Commercial version of PGP 5.0 and related products at http://www.pgp.com
Eudora Light + PGP = Free, Convenient Communication Privacy