Re: Welfare Solution #389

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At 06:32 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

[...]

>>It's this attitude that creates most of the drug 'problem' for 
society.
>>It's not the drugs. People can function fine while enjoying their 
hits of
>>beer, weed, coke or whatever. It's the ciminalisation of some drugs 
and
>>the attitude of people like William H. Geiger III that make the 
drug user
>>outcasts from society.
>
>You are making unfounded assumptions of my position on drug use.
>
I see that I did. No problem, plenty of new stuff here to keep the 
argument going...

>I really could care less about someone who uses drugs on a 
recreational
>basis and is able to buy his drugs with his/her/its *own* money. I 
think
>it is a total waste for those who prefer to spend their life 
drooling in a
>corner with a needle in their arm and/or crack pipe in their hand. 
Even so
>if they or their families are wealthy enough to support this 
behavior more
>power to them.
>
>What I strongly object to is my hard earned $$$ being stolen from me 
to
>support this behavior either in the form of taxes spent on Welfare & 
SS or
>(for the more ambitious junkie) stolen/robbed directly.
>
>As a Libertarian I am all for the legalization of drugs. Our current
>politicians seem incapable of learning from the past that 
prohibition
>never works and causes more problems than it solves (Econmics 101 
supply &
>demand).
>
I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 
certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like getting 
blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....

Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an outcast 
is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For him, 
and for the rest of us.

What works much better is treating his addiction more like a disease. 
This is what we do in The Netherlands. We have few junkies living in 
the street, rarely does a granny get her head blown off for a nickle 
and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 
although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.

The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is the 
result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny spaces. 
It is a problem of us all, so the bill ends up with us all.

Procecuting the addict only serves to drive up that bill. Killing him 
is certainly the cheap option, but a healthy society takes care of 
it's members, even if they mess up so spectacularly. Several 
programs, in The Netherlands and Switzerland and probably other 
places, have shown that by far the cheapest and least painful 
solution for all is just to give the man his drugs. In fact, 
Switzerland is doing just that with it's heroin addicts. As it turns 
out most of them get some sort of life back together, a lot even 
manage to get and hold jobs and thus become productive citizens 
dispite their addiction.
>I also believe, as a Libertarian, that I have the "GOD given right" 
to
>defend myself, my family, and my property, with deadly force if 
needed
>(and I am the one who gets to decide when such force is needed not 
some
>bureaucrat in DC).
>

Alex
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On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
> I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
> himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 
> certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
> entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like getting 
> blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
> should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....

	No one chooses to have the wind blow. If a junkie can 
demonstrate how he became hooked by force, or by accident (i.e. "someone
slipped something in my drink over and over"/medical usage leading to 
addiction), then I will not blame them as much. I know what it is like to 
kick an addiction, and I can just imagine how much worse Herion, Coke, and 
Speed are, but hey, it's your life, you own it, do what you have to. 

> Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an outcast 
> is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For him, 
> and for the rest of us.

	It may not solve _his/her_ problem, but it may also make a couple 
of younger kids think twice before shooting up. 

> What works much better is treating his addiction more like a disease. 

	Assuming that they _want_ to get treated. 

> and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 
> although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.

	If they hold down a job, pay their own way, I could care less, and 
don't mind a bit. 

	I don't want to support them.

> The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is the 
> result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny spaces. 

	Crap. There are kids in small towns all across the USA doing Coke, 
Speed, Pot, and LSD. They aren't "escaping a painful reality", they are 
just fucking bored and looking for a little fun. 

Petro, Christopher C.
snow@smoke.suba.com

At 03:47 AM 8/29/97 +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>Most of them do not like the situation they're in. Try _really_ 
>talking to some of them. The problem is that by the time they're 
>outcasts from society, the only thing left in life that'll take away 
>the pain (physical pain as well, from withdrawel) is the drug. Make 
>these people feel part of society again, and they suddenly gain a lot 
>of strength. Enough strength in many cases to enable them to give up 
>the drugs or at least lower their consumption to a level where they 
>can actually function again.

I must agree with Alex on this one. Why a person became addicted is
irrelevant. They are addicted and the question for the rest of us must
become "how can we minimize the impact their addiction has on us". It has
been shown that people usually grow out of Heroin addiction after time. The
non-black market cost of their addiction is probably less than a dollar per
day. The cost they impose on society when having to support their habit
through the black market is much higher. Even without involving government,
it would be trivial to raise the funds from donations to keep all addicts
supplied with their drugs until such time that they are capable to give up
the drugs entirely.

BTW, I just found out that William S. Burroughs died. No, he didn't grow
out of it an remained an Heroin addict until his death of old age. He must
have been well into his 80's. And he was no burden on society. The
royalties from his  works could have fed even the most severe addiction.

His writings influenced me in a big way during my youth. [This may be
off-topic, but if there is any list on which people might care about the
death a revolutionary like Burroughs, it is Cypherpunks].


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/

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At 18:26 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>> I suppose you believe that a drug addict has no one to blame but 
>> himself, and that he should take _all_ of the blame. I don't. They 

>> certainly deserve some credit for the mess they're in, but not 
>> entirely. Bad luck has a lot to do with it as well. Just like 
getting 
>> blown off a cliff by the wind. You shouldn't have been there, you 
>> should have been strong enough not be blown off, etc....
>
>	No one chooses to have the wind blow. If a junkie can 
>demonstrate how he became hooked by force, or by accident (i.e. 
"someone
>slipped something in my drink over and over"/medical usage leading 
to 
>addiction), then I will not blame them as much. I know what it is 
like to 
>kick an addiction, and I can just imagine how much worse Herion, 
Coke, and 
>Speed are, but hey, it's your life, you own it, do what you have to. 

>
"Bad Luck" in this case means a bit more than simple thigs like 
"someone slipped me one at a party". Bad luck comes in many forms. 
Drugs aren't just a physical thing, they mess with your mind ass 
well. So among "someone slipped me one at a party" we should also 
count "I just got fired and my girlfriend broke up with me and 
everything just plain sucked for a while, and before I knew it I was 
addicted"

>> Also, it being the druggie's fault or not, treating him as an 
outcast 
>> is not going to solve the problem. It'll only make it worse. For 
him, 
>> and for the rest of us.
>
>	It may not solve _his/her_ problem, but it may also make a couple 
>of younger kids think twice before shooting up. 
>
Well, I have news for you: It doesn't make them think twice. You only 
have to look around you to see the prove of that.

>> What works much better is treating his addiction more like a 
disease. 
>
>	Assuming that they _want_ to get treated. 
>
Most of them do not like the situation they're in. Try _really_ 
talking to some of them. The problem is that by the time they're 
outcasts from society, the only thing left in life that'll take away 
the pain (physical pain as well, from withdrawel) is the drug. Make 
these people feel part of society again, and they suddenly gain a lot 
of strength. Enough strength in many cases to enable them to give up 
the drugs or at least lower their consumption to a level where they 
can actually function again.

>> and a dime. Also the mortality rate under the junkies is very low, 

>> although I suspect you don't see that as a good thing.
>
>	If they hold down a job, pay their own way, I could care less, and 
>don't mind a bit. 
>
>	I don't want to support them.
>
I'm not asking you to support them. I'm only saying that it would be 
that much nicer if we could help them get back on their own two feet.

>> The 'drug problem' as it exists in most places in this world is 
the 
>> result of the mindboggeling numbers of people living in tiny 
spaces. 
>
>	Crap. There are kids in small towns all across the USA doing Coke, 
>Speed, Pot, and LSD. They aren't "escaping a painful reality", they 
are 
>just fucking bored and looking for a little fun. 

They're not the drug addicts I talking about here. They're just, like 
you say, "kids looking for a little fun"

Alex
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