Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: CypherPunk Cults)

gturk wrote:

>You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.

Tis true that as these accusatory options for blaming others
are displayed here, it becomes hard to tell who's potshotting from
what shifting position to gain better fire lines at friend and
foe and own foot.

As the Bastiat quote shows, the 19th century is a fount of
apologies for wizened rapacity, as are those stuck in that time warp
of heyday national and indiivudal self-destruction in the cause of 
unshakeable rigteousness, an affliction far from cured in nations and
individuals wanting to be Number One while totally whacked
out on ... take your pick from the socio-politico-econo bazaar,
most of which derives from the days of pre-Bastiat and now 
recycled by crazy-lazy-minded 20th century rip-offers of the
insecurely rich.

Will evolution in action ever kick in, or will the promise of it,
like dreams of social justice and faith in the constitution and arms, 
forever cheat the maniacally despairing with so few other choices
for peace of mind?

Are there any reliable prefabricated alternatives from history, from
today, to self-imposed sheepledom of your sole invention?

Now, to move on to the day's news: Is Tim going to be kidnapped
by a gang of mixed breed cops and ammo merchants, shot instantly
and chained in dugout till his loved redeems his maggoty carcass by
redistributing his nestegg? That's the topic of the NYT's lead business 
story today, the need for secret ransom insurance, so secret that it 
does not make you a free-for-taking target like the usual unwise display 
of peacockery.

Hide it if you got it, hide your lush affiliations too, the poor reporters 
advise, or the world's scum with nothing else to do but watch and wait 
are gonna snag your unsmart ass when you least expect it, now as in 
ages past, unless, to be sure, more scum-world guardians are hired 
and more big-nuke prayerbooks and ransom policys are arsenaled 
bedside, 4X, ankle and thigh.

I usually can't understand more than 5% of what John writes, but then I was
never very good at Blake, Coleridge, and all those DWM dudes.

But I think I understand this paragraph:

At 9:10 AM -0700 8/21/97, John Young wrote:

>Now, to move on to the day's news: Is Tim going to be kidnapped
>by a gang of mixed breed cops and ammo merchants, shot instantly
>and chained in dugout till his loved redeems his maggoty carcass by
>redistributing his nestegg? That's the topic of the NYT's lead business
>story today, the need for secret ransom insurance, so secret that it
>does not make you a free-for-taking target like the usual unwise display
>of peacockery.

Like the game of chicken, it pays to look like a madman. Strangelovian
logic, but valid. If attackers _think_ a victim will pay a ransom, or
relatives will, or that hostage/ransom demands will be met, the result is
both more such events "overall" (which is usually not a concern we as
individualists have), but also an increased probability of
kidnapping/terrorism in the first place. Fairly classical game theory, with
mix-ins specifically of the tragedy of the commons ("everyone negotiates")
and the iterated prisoner's dilemma ("let's all agree not to negotiate,"
except many "defect" from the pact).

Interestingly, many of the strategies for moving assets offshore, to
offshore banks and money havens, is not so much to evade taxes as to
"protect assets." Protect them from ransom/extortion demands of the _legal
profession_ sort, e.g., "deep pockets" lawsuits. For example, somebody
finds out that J. Random Cypherpunk is  financially well off--perhaps from
the increasing number of online credit report records, etc.--and decides to
have a convenient "fall" on his property. He then sues for some large
amount, either covered by Homeowner's Insurance, or more.

(Think this is paranoia? Look into "deep pockets," Lerach, and the
escalation of such lawsuits.)

Not to mention lawsuits by ex-spouses (or even current spouses, who want a
bigger cut of the action).

This is part of what Duncan talks about with his points about "judgment
proofing" oneself. (Two main ways to do this: have few assets, and rent
cars, keep residence somewhat secret. Or, move assets beyond the grasp of
the court system. Both have advantages and disadvantages.)

Unsurprisingly, such attempts to hide assets, even if not done for tax
evasion reasons!!!, are looked at unkindly by the authorities, who would
like it much better if all assets were visible to them and hence pluckable
on various pretexts. The restrictions on banking privacy--named in true
Orwellian fashion, the "Bank Privacy Act"--can be seen as moves to force
all assets out into the open. And the whole "discovery" process in divorce
and civil cases, where even private diaries and personal papers must be
produced for perusal by various parties, is a shameful abrogation of Fourth
Amendment protections. That a court has duly ordered the turning over of
diaries, letters, records, etc. is no excuse.

(When I was at Intel we were urged to never write down anything which could
be used against the company in a lawsuit. Increasingly this meant "don't
write anything down on paper" unless it is neutral and bland. I understand
things have since gotten even more paranoid, and that this is a common
practice. Under "discovery," literally tons of records can be ordered up,
including Day-Timers, scratchpad notes, archives of e-mail, etc. Technical
solutions abound, of course, such as hosting the archives in offshore
locations, or using strong crypto....and "forgetting" the key. This,
obviously, is yet another reason the authorities want "key recovery.")

>Hide it if you got it, hide your lush affiliations too, the poor reporters
>advise, or the world's scum with nothing else to do but watch and wait
>are gonna snag your unsmart ass when you least expect it, now as in
>ages past, unless, to be sure, more scum-world guardians are hired
>and more big-nuke prayerbooks and ransom policys are arsenaled
>bedside, 4X, ankle and thigh.

Not sure what this means, but hiding assets is becoming harder, not easier.
Strong crypto may someday reverse this, but it sure ain't the case today.

(Don't anybody waste their or my time with penny ante ideas for getting
small amounts of money out of the country.)

--Tim May



There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Orginating from: Owen Clear -- First Mate, U.S.S. Concept

In reply to Tim May:
> (Don't anybody waste their or my time with penny ante ideas for getting
> small amounts of money out of the country.)

  First, you get a round-trip ticket to Anguilla.
  Second, you buy a couple pairs of penny-loafers.

  ...uuhhh. Let me get back to you on this.
  (I want to double-check my math so I don't make a fool of myself.)

I remain,
  Owen Clear (on the "Concept")

John Young wrote:
> 
> gturk wrote:
> 
> >You must be referring to the Cult of Redistribution.
> 
> Tis true that as these accusatory options for blaming others
> are displayed here, it becomes hard to tell who's potshotting from
> what shifting position to gain better fire lines at friend and
> foe and own foot.

"When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."

Tim G. May
There's something wrong when I'm limping on a decreasing number of toes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the 
             Electronic Bad Forgery Foundation (TM).
~~~~  
       {This probably means it's Toto again. Check the headers.}
                                                                   ~~~~
        "Imitation is the sincerest form of forgery."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Tim G. May wrote:

> "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> 
> Tim G. May

When all you have are arrest warrants, everyone looks like a drug dealer.
:)

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

At 01:00 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Technical
>solutions abound, of course, such as hosting the archives in offshore
>locations, or using strong crypto....and "forgetting" the key. This,
>obviously, is yet another reason the authorities want "key recovery.")

At a recent Cypherpunks meeting, I had a conversation with a person working
for a Very Large defense contractor. His company plans to literally use
thousands of keys. Their strategy when faced with a subpoena is to hand
over n-m of the total n keys. (m << n) The other keys just can't be found.
After all, it is perfectly reasonable that a few keys out of several
thousand get lost. To quote: "those keys simply won't be subject to subpoena".

I do not know which type of information will be encrypted with said keys.
Of course, neither will others, since the data will remain encrypted...

Remember this the next time you hear some clueless idiot claim that
industry wants full key recovery. The last thing industry needs is access
to all their confidential information during discovery.


--Lucky Green <shamrock@netcom.com>
  PGP encrypted mail preferred.
  DES is dead! Please join in breaking RC5-56.
  http://rc5.distributed.net/

Tim G. May *DID*NOT* write:
> "When all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target."
> 
> Tim G. May
> There's something wrong when I'm limping on a decreasing number of toes
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the
>              Electronic Bad Forgery Foundation (TM).
> ~~~~
>        {This probably means it's Toto again. Check the headers.}
>                                                                    ~~~~
>         "Imitation is the sincerest form of forgery."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

  This is obviously a bad forgery. (It's a *good* bad forgery, however.
I almost thought I did it myself.)
  The giveaway in this forgery is the fact that I actually work for the
"Bad Forgery Department" of the B.F. Deal Record Company, Austin, TX.

Tim G. May
    There's something wrong when I'm a forger under an increasing
            number of duplicitous schiziod breaks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This post is selflessly copyrighted under the auspices of the
                Bad Forgery Department, B.F. Deal (TM).
~~~~
                {Has anyone seen my medicine? -- Toto}
                                                                   ~~~~
  "Imitation is the sincerest form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

At 12:24 PM 8/21/97 -0600, Tim G. May BFD wrote:
>Tim G. May *DID*NOT* write:
>  "Imitation is the sincerest form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am your robot slave. Your whim is my obsessive compulsion."

Bill Gates dies.  He meets Peter at the Pearly Gates, and Peter gives Bill
the option of going to Heaven or Hell.  Bill asks if he can see what his
options are, and Peter offers to show Bill around Heaven and Hell, so Bill
can see which he likes better.  As Bill tours Heaven, he sees nice houses
and meets friendly people, but when he gets to Hell, he sees green fields
dotted with patches of trees, placid streams, and attractive women who are
not-so-subtly lusting after his body.  After the tour is over, Bill decides
that while Heaven is nice, maybe Hell is just a little bit nicer, so Peter
sends Bill off to Hell.

Three days later, Peter decides to go see how Bill is making out in Hell.
He finds him in a dank, squalid dungeon, manacled to a post, with one demon
using a cattle prod on his testicles, and a couple others slowly peeling
pieces of his skin off with blowtorches and machetes, and then dousing him
with concentrated salt water.  Bill is furious.  "You bastard!  What you
showed me was nothing like this!"  Peter replies, "I'm truly sorry.  I
didn't mean to deceive you. I just showed you the demo."


On their wedding night, Bill's wife finally realized where Bill got the
inspiration for his company name.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

PGP 2.6.2 RSA Key Fingerprint: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:00 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>Interestingly, many of the strategies for moving assets offshore, to
>offshore banks and money havens, is not so much to evade taxes as to
>"protect assets." Protect them from ransom/extortion demands of the _legal
>profession_ sort, e.g., "deep pockets" lawsuits. For example, somebody
>finds out that J. Random Cypherpunk is  financially well off--perhaps from
>the increasing number of online credit report records, etc.--and decides to
>have a convenient "fall" on his property. He then sues for some large
>amount, either covered by Homeowner's Insurance, or more.

Foreign Asset Protection Trusts (FAPTs) have indeed become popular for 
protection against general lawsuit and dom rel liabilities.  As long as not 
done in contemplation of bankruptcy, such transfers remain legal.

Another popular reason is privacy in general.  US domestic accounts can be 
examined by any federal, state, or local government employee who can sign his 
name to a subpeona.  Any lawyer can also examine account records in the 
course of discovery proceedings.  There are some limits to the above powers 
but not very substantial limits.  For all we know, FINCEN has a nice Win32-
based point and click browser that can tiptoe through every bank and 
brokerage account in America.  If they don't have one yet, I'm sure they are 
trying to get one.

If domestic lawyers or governments want the same sort of access to accounts 
in other jurisdictions, they have to spend many thousands of dollars and 
months or years of personnel time.  Cuts down on their capabilities.

DCF

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